Panama City 3-01-08 (late trip report)

[magicwanz]

Not to be a jerk about it but Panama City, Florida is on the Gulf Coast of Florida not the Atlantic, and as such only the Gulf Council's regs would apply (not SAFMC) but thats only if I was in Federal waters at the time, which I wasn't.

You are not being a jerk, just misinformed, argumentative, and delusional.

"Approved Rules Summary

MARINE FISHERIES
APPROVED RULES SUMMARY
Prepared by Lee Schlesinger
Revised February 21, 2008...

SPINY LOBSTER (CRAWFISH) AND SLIPPER LOBSTER, CH 46-24, F.A.C. (Effective July 2, 1987)...

Prohibits the use of any device that could puncture, penetrate, or crush lobsters."

So only Florida regs apply...

Ok, Florida regs apply, and you are still incorrect.

...and the one I posted is the only Florida reg that applies to recreational harvest of shovelnose or slipper lobster.

Obviously there are many more.

Another popular misconception is that "Federal Law" as it is called trumps state laws. If it were an act of congress in question this would be so but we are talking about regulations created by a federal bureaucracy (NMFS) which is really administrative code. States rights are sovereign in their territorial waters which in the gulf is 9 nautical miles from the nearest point of land. See again only Florida regs apply in Florida waters.

Wrong, once again, I won't waste any more air on this because it is a mute point at this juncture, refer to FAC CH 46-24.


"Captain", you should have known it is illegal to puncture slipper lobster underwater in Florida, the rules are VERY clear. Then to argue about it was an act of ignorance.

 

[magicwanz]

Heres the link to end further ignorance on the matter...


Approved Rules Summary

MARINE FISHERIES
APPROVED RULES SUMMARY
Prepared by Lee Schlesinger
Revised February 21, 2008

The following is an alphabetical summary of all the Marine Fisheries Commission (MFC) and subsequently, the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) rules that have been adopted since the MFC's inception in 1983 and the FWC’s creation in 1999. Many of these rules have been amended or modified numerous times. Therefore, note effective dates for the most recent action. The full text of all marine fisheries rules are listed in Chapter 68B of the Florida Administrative Code (F.A.C.) and may be accessed at this link - Marine Fisheries Regulations (Management Plans). This is only a summary of rules promulgated by the MFC or the FWC. Other saltwater fishing laws are referenced in Chapter 370, Florida Statutes, in various legislative special acts and local laws, and portions of Chapter 68, F.A.C.

NOTE: MFC rules appeared in Chapter 46 of the F.A.C.; all of these rules have been renumbered and are now published in Chapter 68B of the F.A.C. - references to Chapter 46, which appear throughout this listing, indicate the denotation at the time of the rule’s effective date.

Approved Rules Summary

 

[PatMyGreen]

You do understand that your approved rule summary is a compilation of rec and commercial regs over time, often referred to as the rule evolution? Further do you understand that your interpretation of the regs summary also means that slipper, shovelnose and all other Scylladrides nodifer is subject to the same regs as spinys becuase of a misleading heading over the section? This is patently false.
SPINY LOBSTER (CRAWFISH) AND SLIPPER LOBSTER, CH 46-24, F.A.C. (Effective July 2, 1987)

* Prohibits the harvest of any lobster with a carapace measurement of 3 inches or less or a tail measurement of 5½ inches if the tail is separated from the body
* Establishes a daily bag limit for recreational fishermen during the regular season of 6 per person or 24 per boat, whichever is greater (no off the water possession limit)

Basically the heading of Spiny and slipper lobsters does not mean "that all of the following regs are for both sets", but rather "all regs for both sets are found below."

Whereas I have reread everything I posted and can't seem to find the part where I am delusional or even argumentative (I did contradict you, which you don't seem to be able to handle), I did see the part where you took a reg summary out of context to back up your erroneous conclusion, after I pointed out you had your jurisdictions way off. You may want to go through the Florida rules as they are written and not summarized. Here is the link to all current laws governing spiny and slipper lobsters have a nice read. Here is the link to the actual law and not a summary, please not it is broken into sections and slippers are quite distinct from spinys even though the heading lists both. https://www.flrules.org/gateway/ChapterHome.asp?Chapter=68B-24 You may wish to be alittle less quick to hurl the insults and sarcastic contempt in the future.

If you feel like not being any more of the South end of a North bound mule you can say "my bad" here in this thread since you seemed to imply I am doing a slack job as a boat Captain and ignorant of the regs. Foolishly, delusionally, misinformed, argumentatively, and delusionally again..... standing by.

 

[PatMyGreen]

You can tell the offshore weather is crap if we are both on here arguing like this. "No there 22 episodes of Star Trek, no there are 21!"

 

[magicwanz]

You do understand that your approved rule summary is a compilation of rec and commercial regs over time, often referred to as the rule evolution?

Rules don't evolve, plants and animals do. These are called amendments.

Further do you understand that your interpretation of the regs summary also means that slipper, shovelnose and all other Scylladrides nodifer is subject to the same regs as spinys becuase of a misleading heading over the section?

I have interpreted nothing, only cited the regulations. The heading is not misleading, the regulations are written clearly on a third grade grade reading comprehension level so they are easily understood by all (for the most part).

SPINY LOBSTER (CRAWFISH) AND SLIPPER LOBSTER, CH 46-24, F.A.C. (Effective July 2, 1987)

* Prohibits the harvest of any lobster with a carapace measurement of 3 inches or less or a tail measurement of 5½ inches if the tail is separated from the body
* Establishes a daily bag limit for recreational fishermen during the regular season of 6 per person or 24 per boat, whichever is greater (no off the water possession limit)

Carapace measurement are not defined on slipper lobster, therefore common sense dictates the regulation you cited is only for spiny lobster. There is no sport season for slipper lobster therefore common sense dictates bag limits for spiny lobster.

Basically the heading of Spiny and slipper lobsters does not mean "that all of the following regs are for both sets", but rather "all regs for both sets are found below."

Yes the regs are for both sets. The summary clearly differentiates the two when needed:

- Prohibits the harvest or possession of egg-bearing spiny lobster or slipper lobster
- Prohibits the directed harvest of spiny lobster with nets or trawls (a 5% bycatch exception is allowed)

These are just two examples, there are many more under the summary. In the examples you selected no further differentiation is needed.

Whereas I have reread everything I posted and can't seem to find the part where I am delusional or even argumentative (I did contradict you, which you don't seem to be able to handle), I did see the part where you took a reg summary out of context to back up your erroneous conclusion, after I pointed out you had your jurisdictions way off.

Again, I have interpreted nothing, only cited the regulations. I wrote one simple sentence after my citations. You have now spent many paragraphs "explaining" why you are exempt from federal regulations, and denoting the florida regulations as "misleading".

You may want to go through the Florida rules as they are written and not summarized. Here is the link to all current laws governing spiny and slipper lobsters have a nice read. Here is the link to the actual law and not a summary, please not it is broken into sections and slippers are quite distinct from spinys even though the heading lists both. https://www.flrules.org/gateway/ChapterHome.asp?Chapter=68B-24 You may wish to be alittle less quick to hurl the insults and sarcastic contempt in the future.

Since you are having a problem comprehending Federal and FAC regulations I have provided FWC regulations on spearfishing for you.

Spearing is defined as “the catching or taking of a fish by bow hunting, gigging, spearfishing, or by any device used to capture a fish by piercing its body. Spearing does not include the catching or taking of a fish by a hook with hook and line gear or by snagging (snatch hooking).”

Spearfishing is defined as “the catching or taking of a fish through the instrumentality of a hand or mechanically propelled, single or multi-pronged spear or lance, barbed or barbless, operated by a person swimming at or below the surface of the water.”

The use of powerheads, bangsticks, and rebreathers remains prohibited. The following is a list of species that are prohibited for harvest by spearing. Any other species not listed that are managed by the Commission, and those species not managed by the Commission, are allowed to be harvested by spearing.

*Billfish (all species)
*Spotted eagle ray
*Sturgeon
*Manta ray
*Sharks
*Bonefish
*Tarpon
*Goliath Grouper
*Snook
*Blue Crab
*Nassau grouper
*Spotted seatrout
*Red drum
*Weakfish
*Stone Crab
*Pompano
*African pompano
*Tripletail
*Lobster

This is 46-20 in its entirety, not a summary, which clearly prohibits spearing of all lobster.

If you feel like not being any more of the South end of a North bound mule you can say "my bad" here in this thread since you seemed to imply I am doing a slack job as a boat Captain and ignorant of the regs. Foolishly, delusionally, misinformed, argumentatively, and delusionally again..... standing by.

My bad. So how much does the "Mighty Captain" Pat Green charge for lobster spearing trips? On the trips do you grace people with lobster spearing lessons as well? I would like to learn from the mighty slipper slayer himself.

 

[magicwanz]

You can tell the offshore weather is crap if we are both on here arguing like this. "No there 22 episodes of Star Trek, no there are 21!"

I did pretty good Thursday, Friday, and today. Eighteen spiny total, had one 14# and three more over 10#. Going tomorrow too. All beach dives in less than 15 ft. I'll post pictures here when I'm done.

I wish I'd get a chance to see the good fish that you shoot, but they are just not where where I hunt spiny's, too shallow. Seems like you get good fish every time you post a trip report...

 

[PatMyGreen]

I hate to keep beating a dead horse but you are not quoting the regs with the quasi-exception of the old 46-20 (46-20 is now 68b-20 which doesn't mention lobster at all here is the actual link to the actual reg https://www.flrules.org/gateway/ChapterHome.asp?Chapter=68B-20 ), you are still quoting summaries of the regs in all your earlier posts and to some degree this one as well and you are taking things out of context as well. I am guessing you saw the spearing link on a website where "lobster" was included on the list, which is done to keep people from spearing spiny lobster, but it is imprecise and not what is written officially.

The regs are not clear as you contend, often the word "lobster" appears in the shortened versions and reg summaries when only spiny lobster should appear and is being regulated. They (summaries especially) do not always differentiate as you sugggest, except to say slipper when the regs apply to slipper, which is only egg bearing females. The only place you can get the actual regs and not summaries is the "full rule text by species" links to the FAC from FWC which I also posted and even saved time for you by linking directly to the lobster section. I guess you were to convinced of your interpretations to read the actual regs as they are written and pretty clear.

In addition to being very active in fisheries management on the state and federal (Gulf Council) level I do make my living doing spearfishing charters as well as scuba charters and I promise you I know the regs very well.

They are called evolution and many of the links from FWC say "evolution (history) of each rule."

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the regs.... I would encourage you to contact FWC and see if your interpretation of the regs is what they say is the law, every time in the past this topic has come up they site the same regs I have and say there is no prohibition on shovelnose or slippers except taking eggbearing females. Its come up alot on spearboard and spearfishing planet where I am more active than this forum.

 

[PatMyGreen]

Since you haven't read the other links I'll post this in text for you.


68B-20.005 Prohibited Harvest of Certain Species.
The spearing of the following species and species groups is prohibited:
(1) Billfish (species of the genus Xiphias, Istiophorus, Makaira, and Tetrapturus).
(2) Sturgeon (Acipenser oxyrhynchus).
(3) Tarpon (Megalops atlanticus).
(4) Bonefish (Albula vulpes).
(5) Jewfish (Epinephelus itajara).
(6) Nassau grouper (Epinephelus striatus).
(7) Permit (Trachinotus falcatus).
(8) Pompano (Trachinotus carolinus).
(9) African pompano (Alectis ciliaris).
(10) Sharks as defined in Rule 68B-44.002, Florida Administrative Code.
(11) Spotted eagle ray (Aetobatus narinari).
(12) Manta ray (species of the genus Manta and Mobula).
(13) Snook (species of the genus Centropomus).
(14) Red drum (Sciaenops ocellatus).
(15) Spotted seatrout (Cynoscion nebulosus).
(16) Weakfish (Cynoscion regalis).
(17) Tripletail (Lobotes surinamensis).
(18) Surgeonfish (family Acanthuridae).
(19) Trumpetfish (family Aulostomidae).
(20) Angelfish and butterflyfish (family Chaetodontidae).
(21) Porcupinefish (family Diodontidae).
(22) Cornetfish (family Fistulariidae).
(23) Squirrelfish (family Holocentridae).
(24) Trunkfish (family Ostraciidae).
(25) Damselfish (family Pomacentridae).
(26) Parrotfish (family Scaridae).
(27) Pipefish and Seahorse (family Sygnathidae).
(28) Puffers (family Tetraodontidae).
Specific Authority Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. Law Implemented Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. History–New 1-1-98, Formerly 46-20.005.

FYI I don't spear lobster at all as firing a speargun point blank into a reef is simply retarded to begin with. I do put shovelnose on my metal stringer after I have captured them. I will continue to offer free pointers to anyone who needs the help navigating the regulations.

 

[PatMyGreen]

If you are ever in Panama City I would be more than happy to take you to grab and even string up our little shovelnose lobsters and of course groupers, we have to go deep 150fsw for the spinys with any regularity. But nothing as large as 14# has been taken by me!! Ours are more in the 5-9# class.

 

[gogators27]

Magic...two words... "my bad"