Panama City 3-01-08 (late trip report)

[magicwanz]

Pat,

My email obviously did not come from the same person you spoke with, and my apologies because I should have provided links (I know you like links ), so here they are.

In three pages posts you have not been able to cite a single source that approves spearing as authorized gear types for Slipper Lobster Scyllarides nodifer.
Please do so this time.

He further advised me that he wasn't aware of any management plan for slipper lobster even under the spiny lobster FMP.

Perhaps this may be an excellent opportunity to educate whoever you have spoken with on the matter so in the future there is less confusion among both of you.

The DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993) "Species Listed in the Gulf of Mexico Fisheries Management Plans" include:
(now again for the second time)
(also please note that the number "2" next to the words Spiny Lobster denotes the number of species included in the Spiny Lobster FMP per table 1.5.1)

"Spiny Lobster (2)

Species In the Management Unit
Spiny lobster Panulirus argus
Slipper lobster Scyllarides nodifer

Species In the Management Unit for Data Collection Only
Spotted Spiny lobster Panulirus guttatas
Smooth Tail lobster Panulirus laevicauda
Spanish Slipper lobster Scyllarides aequinoctialis"

- direct quote from DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993), table 1.5.1, page 8-5

Here is the link for the DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993)
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/habitat/habitatprotection/pdf/efh/eis/Section 8 Tables703.PDF

Thanks for posting your correspondence with Richard Leard, however it appears to have been a worthless act of futility under the circumstances.

Pat, As I mentioned, slipper lobster are listed in the Spiny Lobster FMP for data collection only.

You said in your previous quote "he wasn't aware of any management plan for slipper lobster even under the spiny lobster FMP." Now you are contradicting yourself as to what has been said between the two of you? Please be more consistent in the future, as this only damages your "credibility" as to what has been said.

They are not in the management unit, and there are no federal regulations regarding their harvest.

Obviously they are in the management unit. Again (for the third time), please refer to the DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993), table 1.5.1, page 8-5.

Furthermore, Slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) are listed under Spiny Lobster FMP's for the following:

1. Summary of Habitat Utilization by Life History Stage for Species in Spiny Lobster FMP (table 3.2.26)

2. Spiny Lobster FMP Species Depth Preferences by Life Stage from the Habitat Use Database (table 3.2.27)

3. Summary of Occourence by Eco-Region for Life History Stages for Species in the Spiny Lobster FMP (table 3.2.28)


Consequently, Slipper Lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) as "Species In the Management Unit" for the Spiny Lobster FMP (fourth time), are clearly governed by the allowable gear under 50 CFR 600.725 for the Spiny Lobster FMP.
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

Now again, (for the second time):

"A complete list of authorized gear types for the Gulf of Mexico Spiny Lobster Fishery FMP is provided in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 50: Wildlife and Fisheries, Part 600- Magnuson-Stevens Act Provisions, Subpart H- General Provisions for Domestic Fisheries, 600.725 General prohibitions:

It is unlawful for any person to do any of the following...

(v) The use of any gear or participation in a fishery not on the following list of authorized fisheries and gear is prohibited after December 1, 1999....

IV. Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council
Gulf of Mexico Spiny Lobster Fishery (FMP)
Fishery: C. Recreational fishery
Authorized gear types: C. Dip net, bully net, pot, trap, snare, hand harvest."

The use of spears are prohibited under the current FMPs for Slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer), therefore, it is unlawful to spear slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer).

So, um where are you getting your data?

From sources more reliable than yours, obviously.

Again the issue of Jurisdiction has come up and like I said it is what Florida has to say that matters not the gulf council.

Previously you have said "Panama City, Florida is on the Gulf Coast of Florida not the Atlantic, and as such only the Gulf Council's regs would apply (not SAFMC)." Once again, you are contradicting yourself in a previous post. Please be more consistent in the future.

"After the FMP/amendment is developed, the Council submits the FMP/amendment package for review. Following this review, the FMP/amendment is submitted to the Secretary for approval. Once the plan is approved, NMFS adopts federal regulations in the Codified Federal Register (CFR) to implement the plan. The plan is then enforced by NMFS, the U. S. Coast Guard, and state enforcement agencies."

-Federal/State Management Rules for Marine Species
Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Division of Marine Fisheries Management
Fish and Wildlife Research Institute
Review and Discussion
August 16, 2005

http://myfwc.com/commission/2005/Sep/FLORIDA_MANAGEMENT_OF_MARINE_SPECIES.pdf


Frankly, I am surprised at your reactions to the discussion we have formulated, as a "captain" posting on a public forum a simple Code of Ethics should have prevented you from engaging your rebuttal in the first place (where you have condoned spearing slipper lobster :no).

 

[magicwanz]

The FWC officers here in PC are pretty active divers and spearos so there is alot less confusion on their part with those rules...

Yea, sounds like it...

 

[PatMyGreen]

You are absolutely right! The Deputy Director of the Gulf Council must be mistaken when he looked up the regs he oversees where as you are absolutely correct by quoting from a document found in the Office of Habitat Conservation from NMFS from 2003 citing what appears to be a possible FMP from 1993 that has no supporting official documentation in the CFRs. :shelli:

Of course I haven't been able to cite a law saying it is okay to spear, with very few exception laws are written to prevent certain activities, not tell you what is okay to do. To that end I have posted links to both the State of Florida's official code and the Federal Codes for Spiny and slipper lobster, and nowhere does it say "piercing" (which was the original question but also falls under Florida's legal definition of spearing) is prohibited, therefore it is not prohibited. I have talked and corresponded with two officials from the Gulf Council as well as listed their names and contact info for you or anyone else to vet if you feel inclined. They have backed my interpretation of the regs.

I do admire you for standing up to what you perceive as law breaking, but you need to use better sources. I would also love to know who you actually corresponded with who must have represented them self as Bill Daughdrill, you seem really pleased with his qualifications to speak on the matter when you were posting data that supposedly came from him, I would have thought his actual word and the word of the guy he qualifies as the gulf council "expert" would trump an old page buried in the NMFS Office of Habitat Conservation, not exactly codified law.

Why you highlighted the fact that FWC enforces federal laws is alittle bizarre as it isn't part of this argument, if you are trying to imply that NMFS rules become or supersede state law, you are wrong on that as well. Which is why a huge deal in the news of fisheries regulation lately has been Florida and Texas not going along with the Feds grouper plans in their waters.

Any word yet from FWC? You cited a reference number they gave you earlier and I was curious what they replied.

I guess neither of us respects the others sources. But I would point out you have yet to cite an actual law in the Federal regs where it says piercing slipper lobster is prohibited and possesion of slipper lobster is Prima Facie evidence of spearing them. You have pointed out that after Roy Crabtree approves the measures they become part of the CFRs. Why isn't there anything saying slipper lobster are not allowed to be speared like spinys? Find it in the CFRs the link I provided is current as of 3-18-08! I am guessing your source document is outdated or simply incorrect. It specifically defines everything you can't do to a spiny, and it draws distinction between spiny and slipper.

As to ethics you have continually tried to talk down to me and diminish my professional image by imply some sort of impropriety on my part. As a small business owner I take this very seriously, just like I take the regs as anyone who has been on my charters will attest. The only reason I am keeping this thread going is that I am hoping you will actually read some of what has been posted and drop your claim and just maybe stop besmirching my character..... Also the professionalism of the Law Enforcement Officers and of the Gulf Council and their staff.

Further stop trying to put words in my mouth, I do not condone spearing any lobster, except in the legal since whereby piercing them with a stringer after they have been hand captured is taken to mean "spearing." Which is not unethical or illegal anywhere in the Gulf (that isn't a no take reserve). I was pretty clear on my view of this earlier in this thread.

 

[magicwanz]

You are absolutely right! The Deputy Director of the Gulf Council must be mistaken when he looked up the regs he oversees where as you are absolutely correct by quoting from a document found in the Office of Habitat Conservation from NMFS from 2003 citing what appears to be a possible FMP from 1993 that has no supporting official documentation in the CFRs. :shelli:

DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993) lists official FMPs for the Gulf of Mexico Region.

There are 8 Fisheries included in the CFR: I. New England Fishery Management Council (NEFMC), II. Mid-Atlantic Fishery Management Council (MAFMC), III. South Atlantic Fishery Management Council, IV. Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council, V. Caribbean Fishery Management Council, VI. Pacific Fishery Management Council, VII. North Pacific Fishery Management Council, and VIII. Western Pacific Fishery Management Council. Each fishery is responsible for administering their respective Fishery Management Plans (FMPs) in accordance with the CFR.

Species listed in the FMPs may be either “in the management unit” (subject to federal fishing regulations) or “in the management unit for data collection only” (landings are monitored but the species is not subject to federal fishing regulations). Species may be periodically added or removed from the FMPs, or their classification within the FMP may be changed.

In Florida, "After the FMP/amendment is developed, the Council submits the FMP/amendment package for review. Following this review, the FMP/amendment is submitted to the Secretary for approval. Once the plan is approved, NMFS adopts federal regulations in the Codified Federal Register (CFR) to implement the plan. The plan is then enforced by NMFS, the U. S. Coast Guard, and state enforcement agencies."

Of course I haven't been able to cite a law saying it is okay to spear, with very few exception laws are written to prevent certain activities, not tell you what is okay to do. To that end I have posted links to both the State of Florida's official code and the Federal Codes for Spiny and slipper lobster, and nowhere does it say "piercing" (which was the original question but also falls under Florida's legal definition of spearing) is prohibited, therefore it is not prohibited.

(Third time now) "The use of any gear or participation in a fishery not on the following list of authorized fisheries and gear is prohibited after December 1, 1999....

IV. Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council
Gulf of Mexico Spiny Lobster Fishery (FMP)
Fishery: C. Recreational fishery
Authorized gear types: C. Dip net, bully net, pot, trap, snare, hand harvest."

The use of spears are prohibited under the current FMPs where Slipper Lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) are currently defined "in the management unit", therefore, it is unlawful to spear slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer).

I have talked and corresponded with two officials from the Gulf Council as well as listed their names and contact info for you or anyone else to vet if you feel inclined. They have backed my interpretation of the regs.

And that still does not make it lawful to spear Slipper Lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) underwater. Neither of these officials have authority to permit a disregard for the Code of Federal Regulations or Fisheries Management Plans. In either case amendments would be necessary to allow such behavior.

I do admire you for standing up to what you perceive as law breaking, but you need to use better sources.

The resources I have used and provided are as follows:

1. DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993), from the National Marine Fisheries Service and NOAA.

2. The Code of Federal Regulations, from the National Archives and Records Administration (Executive Branch of the United States Government)
.

3. Federal/State Management Rules for Marine Species, from Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, Division of Marine Fisheries Management, Fish and Wildlife Research Institute, Review and Discussion, August 16, 2005
.

I would have thought his actual word and the word of the guy he qualifies as the gulf council "expert" would trump an old page buried in the NMFS Office of Habitat Conservation, not exactly codified law.

While I'm sure he is an expert, his authority does not trump the DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs which has been approved by the Secretary and adopted by the National Marine Fisheries Service and NOAA. A change in classification within the FMP is needed to exempt Slipper Lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) from the CFR.

Why you highlighted the fact that FWC enforces federal laws is a little bizarre as it isn't part of this argument, if you are trying to imply that NMFS rules become or supersede state law, you are wrong on that as well.

But I would point out you have yet to cite an actual law in the Federal regs where it says piercing slipper lobster is prohibited and possesion of slipper lobster is Prima Facie evidence of spearing them.

Spearing Slipper Lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) is clearly prohibited under the CFR. As a result, any lobster that has been pierced is justifiable Prima Facie evidence of spearing them if a speargun is also in possession.

Any word yet from FWC? You cited a reference number they gave you earlier and I was curious what they replied.

No word from the FWC yet. You can get the latest update to my question by logging into myfwc.com using the reference number I provided for you. I will be very surprised if they provide all the information that has surfaced in our dialog.

I am guessing your source document is outdated or simply incorrect. It specifically defines everything you can't do to a spiny, and it draws distinction between spiny and slipper.

(Again) The resources I have used and provided are as follows. They are correct and current (not outdated). If you feel they are either incorrect or outdated please provide the corrections and or updates. You have had every opportunity to do so.

1. DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993), from the National Marine Fisheries Service and NOAA.

2. The Code of Federal Regulations, from the National Archives and Records Administration (Executive Branch of the United States Government)
.

3. Federal/State Management Rules for Marine Species, from Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, Division of Marine Fisheries Management, Fish and Wildlife Research Institute, Review and Discussion, August 16, 2005
.

As to ethics you have continually tried to talk down to me and diminish my professional image by imply some sort of impropriety on my part. As a small business owner I take this very seriously, just like I take the regs as anyone who has been on my charters will attest. The only reason I am keeping this thread going is that I am hoping you will actually read some of what has been posted and drop your claim and just maybe stop besmirching my character..... Also the professionalism of the Law Enforcement Officers and of the Gulf Council and their staff.

Then stop making foolish posts on a public forum.

Further stop trying to put words in my mouth, I do not condone spearing any lobster, except in the legal since whereby piercing them with a stringer after they have been hand captured is taken to mean "spearing." Which is not unethical or illegal anywhere in the Gulf (that isn't a no take reserve). I was pretty clear on my view of this earlier in this thread.

(Again, fourth time) "The use of any gear or participation in a fishery not on the following list of authorized fisheries and gear is prohibited after December 1, 1999....

IV. Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council
Gulf of Mexico Spiny Lobster Fishery (FMP)
Fishery: C. Recreational fishery
Authorized gear types: C. Dip net, bully net, pot, trap, snare, hand harvest."

The use of spears are prohibited under the current FMPs where Slipper Lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) are currently defined "in the management unit", therefore, it is unlawful to spear slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer).

 

[Hetland]

If I ever get a ticket for making a mistake on understanding a conservation law, I'll be sure to subpoena both of you guys into court....

 

[PatMyGreen]

Looks like you have my source beat on the slippers being in the management plan, however that does not change the letter of the law. You are still mis applying the federal codes, which do not prohibit spearing, or piercing a slipper.

Rick Leard emailed with his mistake on slippers being in the management plan his email:
Capt. Green,
After doing some additional research, I stand corrected. The original FMP did not include slipper lobster in the management unit; however, Amendment 1, implemented July 26, 1982 (47 FR 29203), added Scyllarides nodifer to the management unit. The purpose of this action was to prohibit harvest of egg bearing females and stripping of eggs. There are no other regulations on S. nodifer other than the prohibition of using poisons. Also the 622 regulations below only mention spiny lobster in the Caribbean for regulations. You may also want to go on the internet and view 50 CFR Part 640 which confirms my statements above. Since these regulations only prohibit spearing of spiny lobster while the other regulations prohibit harvest, stripping, and possession of egg bearing or stripped spiny and slipper lobster, as well as poisoning of spiny and slipper lobster, the prohibition on spearing is clearly aimed at spiny lobster ONLY. Additionally, these regulations are specific as opposed to the general gear authorizations in 50 CFR Part 600.725 and would take precedence over them. 50 CFR Part 600.725 specifically states: "The list of fisheries and authorized gear does not, in any way, alter or supersede any definitions or regulations contained elsewhere in this chapter." Again, there are no regulations that would prohibit spearing slipper lobsters in the EEZ.
Rick

Richard L. Leard, Ph.D.
Deputy Executive Director
Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council
2203 N. Lois Avenue, Suite 1100
Tampa, FL 33607
813-348-1630, ext. 228

 

[PatMyGreen]

If I ever get a ticket for making a mistake on understanding a conservation law, I'll be sure to subpoena both of you guys into court....

I can't believe anyone besides us is till reading this!

 

[magicwanz]

Pat,

Nice picture you posted on spearboard of the lobster on the stringer!?!?



Unfortunately, it does not appear that you were using any "Authorized gear types" when you harvested them underwater (e.g. dip net, bully net, pot, trap, snare, hand harvest) under the Gulf of Mexico Spiny Lobster FMP (where Slipper Lobster Scyllarides nodifer are "In the Management Unit").


(again, just for good measure )
The use of spears are prohibited under the current FMPs where Slipper Lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) are currently defined "in the management unit", therefore, it is unlawful to spear slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer).

And I think you forgot to answer this post in spearboard as well:

"Pat,I know from past convictions of commercial and recreational lobster catches that a pierced tail or carapace in a spiny is prima facie evidence of spearing."

Thanks for posting the linkback to spearboard!!!

.

 

[PatMyGreen]

Pat,
And I think you forgot to answer this post in spearboard as well:

"Pat,I know from past convictions of commercial and recreational lobster catches that a pierced tail or carapace in a spiny is prima facie evidence of spearing."

Thanks for posting the linkback to spearboard!!!

.

Spiny Which it clearly defines separately in the CFRs from slippers.

 

[magicwanz]

B]Again, there are no regulations that would prohibit spearing slipper lobsters in the EEZ.[/B]

And how are you going to prove that you were in the EEZ when lobsters in your possession have holes in them?


(Again) The DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993) "Species Listed in the Gulf of Mexico Fisheries Management Plans" include:
(now again for the second time)
(also please note that the number "2" next to the words Spiny Lobster denotes the number of species included in the Spiny Lobster FMP per table 1.5.1)

"Spiny Lobster (2)

Species In the Management Unit
Spiny lobster Panulirus argus
Slipper lobster Scyllarides nodifer

Species In the Management Unit for Data Collection Only
Spotted Spiny lobster Panulirus guttatas
Smooth Tail lobster Panulirus laevicauda
Spanish Slipper lobster Scyllarides aequinoctialis"

- direct quote from DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993), table 1.5.1, page 8-5

Here is the link for the DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993)
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/habitat/hab...0Tables703.PDF

Also the 622 regulations below only mention spiny lobster in the Caribbean for regulations

Clearly we have been talking about Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council, not the Caribbean Fishery Management Council. They are different fisheries.