Problems for a Kelp diver on a Caribbean dive,rental gear.

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WOW!
First of all, the dive trip was almost a year ago. I incorrectly said that I had LOC on the first dive. That was wrong. It was during the end of the 2nd dive, also to 80 or 90 feet with the last 20+ minutes in 30'. I am a little foggy since I do not have the computer to download the profile. It was not capable of downloading to a computer; you have to step through the sample points on that rental computer. I also said that I started safety stop with 500PSI. Should have said that I ended at with 300 PSI on the ladder
I was not trolling for anger or what ever. I was probably just tired when I posted. SORRY.
2nd I corrected the weight problem before dive two. End of the Yo- Yo safety stop. I needed probably 4 lbs. but I used 3 two pound weights. Probably over compensated by 2 pounds. Worked for the rest of the trip.
Third I spent the time after the second dive conferring with my Master diver buddies, trying to figure out why the computer went into LOC. I thought I had done an adequate job holding my depth on the safety stop. SO I had no idea that it recorded a missed safety stop. Not a Deco stop. Time at 100 feet was less than three minutes.
I did not know I had Yo-Yoed until the next morning when we stepped through the dive sample points on this cheap computer.
Fourth -Yes I am a FISH. SCUBA, SURFING, Wake boarding, Water skiing, Spring board diving, Kayaking, canoeing, white water rafting, and I have Labrador retrievers. (Waterdogs!) I actually have > 300 computer logged dives. More back in the day in Hawaii when no one I dived with asked for a cert. (I am 57 years old and dove with a navy may west as buoyancy compensator).
My dive buddies, Master divers, former dive boat owners, and long time dive instructors, were certain that the cheap computer was broken since their dive profiles were far from a Deco requirement.
So my lesson was all about unfamiliar gear, unanticipated changes to my buoyancy, (strange gear). And not figuring out the modes on the computer while in the boat, before the dive.
I dove again 2 days later since there was a tropical storm/ hurricane that scrubbed the Tuesday dive boat. Beyond the DECO requirements, worst case for the dive.
All of my computer logged dives show that I know what I am doing, an occasional short fast ascent rate but that is all. My own computer is an Uwatec. I use 2, three minute countdowns if I exceed 90 feet. Which I rarely do.
I am a high tech person; I work with flight computers in a research setting.
Some people that responded to my post acts like computers don't make mistakes. I am still not sure how the formula in the computer determined that a safety stop at 15' with periodic fluctuations to 25 -12' was a full miss of the stop. It acted like I shot to the surface. I was 6 minutes at that depth block.
I may have been sloppy, but I was not dangerous. ( I was "DECO JIM" for the rest of the trip).
Thanks for the eye opening comments.
It was a mistake posting it.

I don't mean to be rude, but this post directly contradicts your first post and your actions. I don't know if you've remembered things differently or maybe didn't like the comments so you're adjusting things to seem better now that people are piling on (me included), but something isn't adding up. You can't count your surfing, kayaking, wakeboarding, or anything else as diving experience unless it's actually diving. Hell if I did that I'd say I was a fish too... but those sports are almost completely irrelevant to your diving capability. (Comfort in the water does play a factor though...) Now your profile says 0-24 dives, which also doesn't match what you are saying. I don't much care about dive counts but I do care about people's actions. The actions you described in both posts don't sound like the actions of someone with as much dive experience you say you have unless you're a vacation type diver that does "guided" dives all the time. That also doesn't match with what you've said though, so I'm quite confused.

If you have as many dives as you say and you still didn't do a proper weight check, or have SOME idea of what your weight should have been from simple math and experience, I'd say you should do some refresher work. Relying on a "master diver" to tell you what weight you should be using is definitely a newb thing to do, as are several of the other mistakes you made. I'm not doubting your veracity, just suggesting that you should take some refresher training. At the very least go back and reread some of your materials from OW.

Second, just because you're a "high tech person" that "works with flight computers in a research setting" doesn't mean you had any idea how the computer in your hand was working at the time. As has been said, dive computers (the 5 I've putzed around with and read manuals for) don't lock you out for a missed safety stop. That means the computer thought you were in deco. The fact that your "master diver" friends and you didn't recognize that is a major problem. Yes, Suunto computers are typically more conservative than other brands. Yes, people have seen as many as 6 or 7 minutes difference in NDL times from other brands, depending upon the dive. Were you in deco? Maybe, maybe not, but the computer thought you were and that's all that matters when you're diving on the computer.

Unfamiliar gear is a bitch; plain and simple. It rarely fits properly, it's not what you're used to and it sometimes doesn't work well. Lesson learned. I'd dare say you have other lessons you should have learned from this trip, though.
 
Below this post you will find info from the suunto gekko. It appears from the manual that if you have incorrect assent rate (as you stated you yo-yoed) that a recommended/optional safety stop can be converted to a required safety stop. Though the manual does not explain the difference between a required safety stop and a deco obligation, it seems that the computer will not lock you out but penalize your significantly on your next dive. This would explain why the computer let you continue to dive but then bent you on the next dive even though you corrected your buoyancy issues and no one elses computer seemed to feel that they violated them.

Seems like a somewhat stupid feature as the waves during rough seas will often make my computers very unhappy on my safety stop. You said the dives were over a year ago so I fully believe that you computer said ER and not LOC. The things you stated about your dive, and the things stated in the manual explain to my satisfaction of what happened. You either did not notice that it was in DECO on your second dive of choose not to believe/accept what it told you. You may disagree with how it handles it calculations, but it did as the manual said it would.

I underlined the important parts of the manual. MYSTERY SOLVED.

Jimmy (loves to solve a good mystery)

3.2.2. Mandatory Safety Stop
When the ascent rate exceeds 12 meters/min [40 ft] momentarily or 10 meters/min
[33ft] continuously the micro-bubble build-up is predicted to be more than allowed
for in the decompression model. The Suunto RGBM calculation model responds
to this by adding a Mandatory Safety Stop to the dive. The time of this Mandatory
Safety Stop will depend on the severity of the ascent rate excess.
20
The STOP sign will appear in the display and when
you reach the depth zone between 6 m to 3 m [20 ft
to 10] also the CEILING label, ceiling depth and the
calculated Safety Stop time appear in the display. You
should wait until the Mandatory Safety Stop warning
disappears (Fig. 3.13.).
The Mandatory Safety Stop time always includes the
three minute Recommended Safety Stop time. The total
length of the Mandatory Safety Stop time depends on
the seriousness of the ascent rate violation.
You must not ascend shallower than 3 m [10 ft] with
the Mandatory Safety Stop warning on. If you ascend
above the Mandatory Safety Stop ceiling, a downward
pointing arrow will appear and a continuous beeping
starts (Fig. 3.14.). You should immediately descend to,
or below, the Mandatory Safety Stop ceiling depth. If
you correct this situation at any time during that dive,
there are no affects on the decompression calculations
for future dives.
If you continue to violate the Mandatory Safety Stop,
the tissue calculation model is affected and the dive
computer shortens the available no-decompression
time for your next dive
. In this situation, it is recommended
to prolong your surface interval time before
your next dive.

---------- Post added April 18th, 2012 at 09:52 AM ----------

I don't mean to be rude, but this post directly contradicts your first post and your actions. I don't know if you've remembered things differently or maybe didn't like the comments so you're adjusting things to seem better now that people are piling on (me included), but something isn't adding up. You can't count your surfing, kayaking, wakeboarding, or anything else as diving experience unless it's actually diving. Hell if I did that I'd say I was a fish too... but those sports are almost completely irrelevant to your diving capability. (Comfort in the water does play a factor though...) Now your profile says 0-24 dives, which also doesn't match what you are saying. I don't much care about dive counts but I do care about people's actions. The actions you described in both posts don't sound like the actions of someone with as much dive experience you say you have unless you're a vacation type diver that does "guided" dives all the time. That also doesn't match with what you've said though, so I'm quite confused.

If you have as many dives as you say and you still didn't do a proper weight check, or have SOME idea of what your weight should have been from simple math and experience, I'd say you should do some refresher work. Relying on a "master diver" to tell you what weight you should be using is definitely a newb thing to do, as are several of the other mistakes you made. I'm not doubting your veracity, just suggesting that you should take some refresher training. At the very least go back and reread some of your materials from OW.

Second, just because you're a "high tech person" that "works with flight computers in a research setting" doesn't mean you had any idea how the computer in your hand was working at the time. As has been said, dive computers (the 5 I've putzed around with and read manuals for) don't lock you out for a missed safety stop. That means the computer thought you were in deco. The fact that your "master diver" friends and you didn't recognize that is a major problem. Yes, Suunto computers are typically more conservative than other brands. Yes, people have seen as many as 6 or 7 minutes difference in NDL times from other brands, depending upon the dive. Were you in deco? Maybe, maybe not, but the computer thought you were and that's all that matters when you're diving on the computer.

Unfamiliar gear is a bitch; plain and simple. It rarely fits properly, it's not what you're used to and it sometimes doesn't work well. Lesson learned. I'd dare say you have other lessons you should have learned from this trip, though.


DAMN FJPATRUM,
Make sure to kick his dog and slap his mom on your way out. :D
You could have saved yourself some typing and time by just saying "YOU SUCK" in big font.............

Just sayin'
Jimmy
 
Jimmy, that's funny. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, though it may have come across that way. My point was that I, as a newb, see an awful lot of newbie mistakes that don't seem to add up, for whatever reason. I think that opportunities to learn should be recognized and I'm not sure, from the OP's comments, that they are. I'd hate to see this happen again, or worse, to someone who is presumably a nice person just looking to improve himself and other divers by posting the original post.

Sometimes pointing things out is harsh though... I've been told I'm "brutally honest" once in a while, which is sometimes code for mean but in this instance I'm hoping to be the former rather than the latter.
 
I know what you are trying to do. :D You also have to look at his original post. He was not looking for advice on what he did wrong, but to warn others that if this could happen to him, it could happen to ANYONE. As he said, this happened a year ago and whatever lessons he would have learned from this, he has. Us yelling at him is not going to change much.

I really do not care or give much thought to the i'm a fish, i do not log dives, or any number of logged dives. A valid point is a valid point. Judge a comment by its merit, not the person saying it.

I know I have made posts like the OPs and gotten tore down by the forums. I felt my argument/statements were also valid, but when an outcome is not ideal, our response on the forums should not to blame the person but explain how we should/could handle things differently.

Its all good.

JImmy
 
Suuntos will lock you out if you have an uncontrolled ascent. I know this because I dived recently off a boat, and a DM candidate who was supposedly chaperoning me on the dive had an uncontrolled UPSIDE DOWN ascent from 60 feet to the surface. I tried grabbing him, but quit when I realised I was being dragged up too. He escaped unhurt, but his Suunto went into guage mode.
 
Suuntos will lock you out if you have an uncontrolled ascent.

That seems reasonable. I love hearing people complain that their "computer is bent".

The computer indicating SOS or whatever it displays is a warning about what's going on inside the diver, not the computer. The computer is just fine, and is going about it's business as-designed.

flots.
 
Yeah but it is just a phrase. I see it as semantics. I commonly say I "bend my computer." People understand what it means.


I solved the problem by buying a computer that does not lock you out. My major complaint is that a computer is designed to the lowest common denominator. My computers now will not lock you out and will try to help you as best it can. I can also change any settings underwater. I appreciate such options.
 
Yeah but it is just a phrase. I see it as semantics. I commonly say I "bend my computer." People understand what it means.


I solved the problem by buying a computer that does not lock you out. My major complaint is that a computer is designed to the lowest common denominator. My computers now will not lock you out and will try to help you as best it can. I can also change any settings underwater. I appreciate such options.

That's sort of the point. When you buy a dive computer, you're implicitly saying "I trust the decompression model inside the magic box".

A computer that models decompression and detects that the diver has ignored the decompression plan and arrived at the surface with a potentially dangerous gas-load, should lock the diver out. That's part if its job.

I'm curious; what kind of computer did you get?

flots.
 
I Dive a VR3 with a couple different back ups including paper. Most computers that are marketed to the tech world will not lock you out. If you "violate" them, it will give you its "best guess"

The shearwater predator is an amazing piece of equipment that seems to be running multiple variations of the dive at the same time. While you may set the computer to a certain degree of conservatism before the dive, it also lets you know what it believes the fastest/quickest time you could safely get out of the water. Of course with any computer, nothing is a guarantee that you will not get DCS. When diving with multiple gases and a whole range of possibilities, someone can not take enough paper table to cover all things that can easily happen on a dive. If you lose or a deco bottle fails and now you can not use it, what is the new plan? What about you lose all your deco gasses and all that is on the boat to send down is someones 32%. If this happens, I can remove those gasses from its calculations and add the new gasses while underwater and the dive is underway. Yes it is more task loading because you could easily let the computer bend you, but I always like to have more options underwater instead of less. I really do think it is a shame for people to spend 600-800 on dive computers that limit them. For a few hundred more you can have one will not.

Yes I know about diving your plan and planning you dive.

jimmy
 
I Dive a VR3 with a couple different back ups including paper. Most computers that are marketed to the tech world will not lock you out. If you "violate" them, it will give you its "best guess"

I'm not sure what a "best guess" would look like after blowing off a deco stop and surfacing.

flots.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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