Procedure for a stuck bc infator valve.

[H2Andy]

i think the vent-and-remove at the same time is ideal. it solves both your problems
at once ... however ...

when this happened to me, it happened as follows:

i pressed the inflator button to let in just a bit of air, and i could hear that when
i let go, it was still hissing. it took me a copule of seconds to register what was
going on, and about one second to decide what to do, which was to disconect the
hose.

by the time i got done disconecting the hose, about five seconds worth of air
were in my wing and i was heading up. i immediately pressed the dump button
and held the hose above my head, and i was able to stop my ascent before
hitting the cave roof. i was in Devil's, and i estimate the ceiling at that point was
roughly 30 feet.

what i really should have done is what Mike says and start to dump and disconect
at the same time. that would have probably kept my runaway ascent much shorter.

 

[TheHobster]

What amazed me is that they asked what one should do in that situation. My response was "You practiced it, don't you remember?" They didn't so I started teaching it a bit differently.

Mike, how do you teach it differently?? I am getting ready to start a class and would love to hear how you do it so I can show/incrporate your ideas

Also, for whoever said abort the dive when this happens, thats just another example of the wussification of America; "what button do I push to make this work?" - we make things too easy - next thing you know people will be climbing Everest with little or no training; or diving the Doria with little or no training - ooops, both of those have already been done

I am an old mossback that predates not only power inflation, but buoyancy control devices in general - if weighted properly, oral inflation takes no time or effort - hell, I can remember the intense discussions over oral inflation vs power inflation in the mid 70's ! you're wasting air with that power inflation!!!! with those guys I was a pansy as I had a pressure gauge - different world then

 

[ReefHound]

i think the vent-and-remove at the same time is ideal. it solves both your problems
at once ... .

I agree, I think we all essentially are thinking the same but getting hung up on nuances.

I cannot disconnect and vent at the same time with one hand. I can disconnect with just the left hand and that hand is already in approximate position when the problem would occur. The right hand may be holding a dive light or a camera or who knows what.

Like I said, maybe I'm more in tune to this having experienced it, and I cannot see more than 2 or 3 seconds extra air going in before disconnecting. But the key point here is that one should PRACTICE this and be familiar with what they can do. See if you can disconnect with one hand or not. See if your BC can vent faster than air going in or not.

To the other guy... Proper maintenance can give you better odds but no amount of maintenance can *guarantee* against equipment failures.

 

[JDog]

If one has not tried to manualy inflate their BC at depth.....you should try it. I was surprised at how hard it was to do, maybe not at 20ft but try it at 80 and see the difference.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks for dissecting my post line by line.

It wasn't meant to be a disection. I just tried to clearly respond to several different points.

But... if you'll notice I also said "practice this until it's basically one motion" so I essentially agree that you do both at the same time.

I'm a diver who had this happen and I definitely did not rocket up.

The only part you said that doesn't make much sense to me is that often excessive buoyancy is what one notices first. I find that power inflator rather noisy, I can not only hear mine well with a hood but also my buddy's. If I press the button and hear the hiss, let go of button and continue hearing the hiss, I'll know in about 1 second that there is a problem. Maybe because I've had this problem I'm more observant than most but I typically hold the inflator a few seconds after I release the button to ensure it isn't sticking.

But it's not like I'm constantly hitting the inflator button throughout a dive, typically a few times on descent and to level out at bottom depth.

Now maybe that is where we are differing. If someone cannot hear the sound or is oblivious to it, and the first sign they get is when they wonder why everybody else is sinking so fast, then maybe they better vent immediately.

I've seen this problem the most with the Zeagle inflators that use the schrader valve. In fact, I think the only time I've seen it with any other inflator has been in real cold conditions where everything is icing up. The grease gets gummy and the return spring (just a bent washer) isn't strong enough to return the button so the button essentially sticks. Sometimes they'll stick almost full on and in that case I'm sure that most divers would be able to hear it. However, most of the time they are only stuck partially on and maybe even with just a slow leak into the BC.

We seen this problem so many times that I lost count. Our rental/school BC's were Zeagle and it happened MANY times to students both in the pool and open water and we've had it happen to many BC's that we sold. For a while we were having it happen at least once and maybe more on each trip to the pool or open water and my wife got very handy at tearing them apart and cleaning them on the spot. Additionally she'd go through and check each and every one prior to each use. We went back and forth with Zeagle for a long time. I sent them valves, they sent me valves and I don't think there was ever a resolution that I heard about. Eventually, we just replaced all the inflators on all our Zeagle BC's with other types of inflators.

To make matters worse, we've also had problems with the LP hose fit on inflators. Some hoses would fit on some inflators but not others. Sometimes they were hard to get on or worse just hard to get off. That meant that to insure that a inflator hose could reliably and easily be disconnected each reg/BC conbination needed to be checked. We baught hoses at several different places and I don't know that we ever identified a single source as the problem or even whether the problem was the hoses or the inflators but one or more manufacturer obviously had/has a tolerencing issue.

Anyway, back to the problem in the water, a slow or moderate leak into the BC wasn't always heard. The times I had it happen to me wasn't a big deal but it was real havock on students. Personally, I have some hearing loss in the higher frequency ranges and I can't always hear an inflator when I'm wearing a hood. Sometimes they'd get buoyant and dump, get buoyant and dump...maybe dump a little too much and inflate and it would stick on harder and up they'd go. Well, the point is that depending on how hard it stuck on things always went a bit different. Some of the things that happened would have been funny if it weren't potentially dangerous. The interesting point is how rarely a student figuired out what was going on in time to fix it and my heart ended up in my throat a whole bunch of times before we finally threw all those inflators in the garbage can.

In general most inflators just fill way too fast. If they get stuck full on a bc can go from empty to completey full really quick and if you don't get dumping in a hurry, you'll never catch up and arrest the ascent because once you start up you have the additional problem of expansion. If gloves or anything else delays getting the hose disconnected you won't have a chance unless you're dumping from the start. With most inflators, you can control your position even with the thing stuck full on as long as you get on that dump in a hurry. That gives you time to get the hose disconnected. Having both actions be lightning fast is best but it doesn't always work that way especially when you toss in cold and heavy exposure protection.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, how do you teach it differently?? I am getting ready to start a class and would love to hear how you do it so I can show/incrporate your ideas

When I was teaching OW it was a PADI class. PADI requires the skill and standards permit it to be done at the surface or under the surface in shallow water.

I didn't realize there was a problem until my class happened to be at the quarry when a diver was hurt because of a stuck inflator and they asked how to respond to it. They had been taught how but didn't remember. BTW, the diver who was hurt apparently tried to ditch his BC on the way up and was on the surface before he got much done. Of course had he managed to get rid of the bc, he would have then been at depth with nothing to breath...not a great situation either. He may have still had buoyancy problems too depending on where his weights were.

The problem wasn't so much with the way we conducted the skill as it was emphisis. It was such a quick easy thing to run through that students just didn't remember it and it certainly wasn't deeply ingrained the way an emergency procedure needs to be. I really just added some ooomph to my briefing of the skill and added more repetition in the practice. Having had the class who didn't remember and be present when it happened to a diver gave me a good real life diving story to add to the briefing. having had all the sticky Zeagle inflators gave me a bunch more that I could use. It's funny how some of us don't have much to say when we first start teaching but once we get a little more experience under our belts we have trouble fitting in everything we want to say. LOL

I was hesitant to conduct the skill under water but I did it a few times (in very shallow water) after having done it on the surface and things went ok. The nice thing about doing it underwater is that students actually get to try controling their position and get a feel for how quick they need to react like they do with the stuck inflator excersizes in a dry suit class.

I conducted the skill slightly different from the PADI recommended procedure. They recommend (see the recommended training sequence for CW mod 2) having students hold the inflate button to simulate the inflator being stuck and to react by disconnecting. What I did different was that I would hold the inflate button to simulate the stuck inflator and have students react by dumping and disconnecting at the same time. With me holding the inflate, they could use two hands...one to hold the valve and dump while the other disconnects. If we were doing it underwater and the student didn't get a handle on it fast enough all I had to do was to stop inflating and we could start over without the student going anyplace. If the student is handling the inflator, they just end up on the surface when they're too slow because they don't think to let go of the inflate button if they have trouble getting the hose off.

Also, for whoever said abort the dive when this happens, thats just another example of the wussification of America; "what button do I push to make this work?" - we make things too easy - next thing you know people will be climbing Everest with little or no training; or diving the Doria with little or no training - ooops, both of those have already been done

I am an old mossback that predates not only power inflation, but buoyancy control devices in general - if weighted properly, oral inflation takes no time or effort - hell, I can remember the intense discussions over oral inflation vs power inflation in the mid 70's ! you're wasting air with that power inflation!!!! with those guys I was a pansy as I had a pressure gauge - different world then

Some technical class require the diver to demonstrate that they can dive without a power inflator. In tech gear, you can be properly weighted and still heavy just because of the amount of gas being carried. It's not hard but you have to be thinking ahead. Properly weighted in recreational gear it's really easy.

I think OW students should be required to practice diving using oral inflation too just because an immediate ascent isn't always the best choice even on an open water dive and we're not talking anything real tricky here.

Another one is no mask swimming. Students are required to do it but they are not required to practice ascents with no mask. If you end a dive because of losing a mask you'll probably need to ascend and ascents, all too often, aren't taught very well anyway. Not that it's hard to get yourself to the surface but they, IMO, should practice doing it noce and slow and while staying WITH their buddy. I never added this skill to my OW class when I was teaching but I will if I ever teach again. It just combines two skills (no mask swimming and ascents) and provides more practice at both.

Not to get off on too big a tangent but the skill that I found to be one of the hardest for students to master was free flow management...we see lots of free flows around here. Any one can do it if they're negative on the bottom where most instructors conduct the skill. The problem is that in real life it happens when we are midwater and often right in the middle of a descent. If you have students demo the skill midwater (where we have to deal with problems on real dives) almost all of them end up on the surface the first couple of tries. In real life? They end up on the suface and sometimes they reach high rates of speed on their way there too. This is something else that's gotten more than a few a, not so free, ride in an ambulance. There's even a thread on this board about a student who had a free flow on an AOW deep dive and the student, their buddy and the instructor all ended up in like a 160 FPM ascent from 70 or 80 ft. They didn't even realize they were going up until they broke the surface. I printed that account from the board and used it as a handout in class (with the divers permission of course). At one local site that deep and cold, I've probably seen half a dozen rapid ascents because of free flows in a single weekend. First one diver would break the suface with the free flow and sometime later the buddy will show up although a couple of times we had to go out looking for the buddy. Some regs also seem WAY better in cold water than others. Combine a reg meant for the caribbean, a heavy breathing diver adding air to their bc in fairly deep cold water (where flow through the reg is large) and the bubbles start flying. LOL Since I bashed the Zeagle inflators pretty good, I should mention that Zeagle regs (even the unsealed models)are one of the brands that I've used on MANY VERY deep dives in cold water and I don't think I've never seen one free flow during a dive though, in theory it can happen with any reg.

When we look at the population of divers, the sport looks pretty safe and training looks deceptively adequate because usually nothing goes wrong and all the diver has to do is breath. Breathing doesn't take a lot of practice and most of us are pretty good at it even before taking a scuba class. If we limit our examination to divers who do run into problems things don't come out looking as good because a large percentage fail to achieve a desireable outcome (maintaining or regaining control) even though the loss of control may not result in injury. Rapid and/or uncontrolled ascents happen every single day for a variety of reasons at dive sites all over the world and even show up reported in a significant percentage of dives that result in injury in the DAN report. Most rapid ascents don't result in injury but they certainly can and sometimes do. They also frequently result in buddy seperation which might be why it's so rare to have an eye witness when a diver is hurt...somtime during the problem they get seperated.

Sorry about the rant but a few of these skills and the way they're taught is a real pet peave of mine. LOL

 

[CAPNVINNY]

I've never seen a stuck inflator fill a bcd at full tilt,but on numerous ocassions I have seen one leak slowly and without any warning hiss especially on rental gear.It fills the bcd slowly until the time the diver realizes he is headed to the surface and needs to do something pretty quick,especially in 20 to 30 ft of water you wont have much time so you better be venting and trying to disconnect at the same time.

 

[ReefHound]

I've seen this problem the most with the Zeagle inflators that use the schrader valve.

To make matters worse, we've also had problems with the LP hose fit on inflators. Some hoses would fit on some inflators but not others.

Anyway, back to the problem in the water, a slow or moderate leak into the BC wasn't always heard. The times I had it happen to me wasn't a big deal but it was real havock on students.

In general most inflators just fill way too fast.

I'm not trying to contradict you, I'm speaking only in the context of my experiences. I fought with sticky inflator problems several times (Sherwood inflator), even having problems with a brand new unit. I believe there was a recall on some production dates. In my experiences, and the two others I've seen, the problem was always a full flow sticking. BTW, if you had this happen and for some reason couldn't get the hose off, would you try ripping the inflator tube off?

On a slow leak, which sounds like may be more common than I had thought, I can see how excess buoyancy would be the first sign and that the source of the problem may not be immediately apparent. As with most problem solving, it often comes down to the specifics of the circumstances. In either scenario, both issues must be resolved quickly.

Maybe it's my bad memory but I don't recall this issue being addressed in my OW 12 years ago. New divers are pretty task loaded but it's a common and critical issue.

I've also had problems with LP hoses and connections fitting.The LP on my backup reg won't fit on a spare BC I have. Everything else fits with each other.

I agree that power inflators inflate way too fast.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm not trying to contradict you, I'm speaking only in the context of my experiences. I fought with sticky inflator problems several times (Sherwood inflator), even having problems with a brand new unit. I believe there was a recall on some production dates. In my experiences, and the two others I've seen, the problem was always a full flow sticking. BTW, if you had this happen and for some reason couldn't get the hose off, would you try ripping the inflator tube off?

The only time that I've been unable to get the inflator hose off at all was when one stuck at the surface when I surfaced and inflated when it was way below freezing.

There are a couple of problems with tearing of the BC inflator tube. One is that you may have trouble keeping much air at all in the BC. The other problem is that while that might stop the leaking air from getting into the BC, it will still be leaking and your air is going to go fast.

On a non-overhead, no-stop dive with a single reg and a single output valve I would just control buyancy by constant dumping and keep trying to get the hose off as I ascended. With this option you are still loosing air but the surface is an option on an OW no-stop dive. On a deeper, colder, overhead or whatever dive, I would have manifolded doubles or, at the very least, an h-valve on a single. I could just shut down the right post which is where the BC inflator is comming from. again, I would continue to try to get it off. Once I did, I could open that post again. Shutting down a post obviously leaves you without a second functioning reg but unstopable leaks when we can't surface immediately is why we use a dual output valve and two seperate first stages in the first place.

 

[spectrum]

I think there is a somehting of a "fire drill" reponse happening in some off these posts. When we know there is a planned drill we keep our coats and hats handy and comfortably march out to the parking lot in an orderly manner. Now try it again with smoke in the hallway.....

Here's how I see it..

If (or maybe even when) my inflator decides to stick I don't expect any real warning. I may have an audible clue that it didn't cut off immediately on release or I may not depending on my head gear and other sounds. My first indictaion of a problem will either be a tightening of my BC and more likely the commencement of an unplanned ascent.

Right there I have a problem that if left unchecked will sent me to the surface faster tnah I should be getting there. By pulling on my inflator hose the full dump will be opened. this is designed to dump anything the inflator can pass. In one super simple motion I have brought myself under control and can then release the QD in an orderly fashion.

If I go for the QD release there is a chance that for any number of reasons despite practice it will not go as smoothy and meanwhile I'm ascending.

If your BC does not have an inflator or shoulder dump with that capabilty then you have a different set of rules to work by.

Pete