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PatH:
I've always said that if OW courses were taught properly the DIRF would go out of business. After all... it is about the "fundamentals" of good diving. That said, don't expect any serious changes in the near future. Even a well meaning instructor can only do so much with the industry standard length course. At least he/she can get you pointed in the right direction.

I'm curious Pat ... are you an instructor? If so, how do you teach your OW class. If not, how would you propose it be taught "properly"? Please be specific, given that people are generally only willing to pay (at the top end) about $350 for a well-taught OW class.

Skills that are taught in DIR-F require some bottom time ... especially if you're going to start with someone who's brand new to diving. And I would assume you'd want plenty of pool time to work on those buoyancy skills before taking them out in OW to demonstrate proficiency. Dunno about where you live, but around here pool time is expensive ... when you can get it.

See, I'm thinking that the reason JJ has taken so long to come out with an OW class (I've been hearing about it for over a year now and it still ain't reality) is because these are easy subjects to make platitudes about ... but it's another matter entirely when you get down to the practicalities of actually doing it.

I'm not saying it can't be done ... in fact, I'm all for it if you can show me how to do it. I AM saying that I don't think it's as simple as the catch-phrases that keep showing up in here.

PatH:
Now, if they taught the AOW course properly (actual 'advanced' skills) after acquiring some experience instead of just a baby-sitting course that might make a difference. In the meantime... there is DIRF.

Tell ya what Pat ... if you're ever in the Puget Sound area, consider this an open invitation to sit in on my AOW class ... I'll even schedule one at your convenience. You might be surprised by what you learn ... if not about diving, then certainly about misconceptions regarding what non-GUE instructors can teach. I guarantee you it isn't based on the principles of "baby-sitting".

Remarks like the above are really a pet peeve of mine ... believe it or not, they come across as so condescending that they make it more difficult for me to sell my students on the value of the DIR program.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I doubt anyone would disagree that there are many many very qualified and proficient instructors out there, mine was and I'm sure you are as well. The point of this thread was to examine a way to let someone walk in to SCUBA via DIR. If PADI can come up with a way to teach OW I'm sure JJ and the fine folks at GUE can too.
 
jonnythan:
See, that's just what an old dog who wants you to think he can be a young dog would do. :eyebrow:
I don't want to BE a young dog. I just want to allow myself to THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES like one. Note, I didn't say I wanted to THINK like one either. It took too long to stop thinking like one. :D

Christian

P.S. No young dogs were harmed in the making of this post. :wink:
 
Hey Chris,

Our local DIR-F instructor also teaches NAUI open water. You might put your friend in touch with him. Even if he's not avaialable, I'm sure he could make a good referral to a competent instructor. There are several shops in the Bay Area and Sacramento who are "DIR Friendly."

The important thing, IMHO, is to avoid wasting money on substandard gear. Many of us learned that lesson the hard way.

Speaking of learning the hard way, I overcame 8 ft. breakers, EMS and Coast Guard searching for lost divers, and panic-stricken students needing rescue (to name but a few obstacles) to wrap up my DIR-F yesterday. Woohoooo!

Josh
 
A fairly broad brush for a fairly broad problem. Now, that said you seem to have been inserting your pet peeves in between my lines of text. At no time did I point at any agency, but at the OW courses as a whole and the AOW courses on an average. If you are doing differently, then great, you are one of the few. I applaud you, like I do the others that are really trying. My comment just goes to highlight how rare a commodity a good instructor really is.

NWGratefulDiver:
I'm curious Pat ... are you an instructor? If so, how do you teach your OW class. If not, how would you propose it be taught "properly"? Please be specific, given that people are generally only willing to pay (at the top end) about $350 for a well-taught OW class.
Nope, I've pretty much refused to date to get my instructor's ticket, though I used to DM and AI for a good friend of mine (another one of the few consciencous recreational dive instructors). I can't imagine being happy teaching with the limitations you've righly identified above. How do you fix it... start by asking people to pay for quality. I'm not saying they actually will ;-), but why did the industry change to give them the choice. When I did my OW it lasted 12 weeks and cost in 1984$ the same ($350) as what people are willing to pay today in 2004$. People are getting what they are prepared to pay for,... unfortunately.

Skills that are taught in DIR-F require some bottom time ... especially if you're going to start with someone who's brand new to diving.
Assuming the limitations you have listed above (cheap students) you can't fix it entirely. But you can get them started. Teaching from day 1 issues like: no hand swimming, proper trim and buoyancy, better finning techniques, low impact diving, etc. The so called "soft skills" of diving. Will they perfect it... nope... but if you get them on the right path and then bring them back 30 dives later for a demanding AOW you'll have a bunch of divers that you can probably be proud of.

Tell ya what Pat ... if you're ever... you might be surprised by what you learn... if not about diving, then certainly about misconceptions regarding what non-GUE instructors can teach. I guarantee you it isn't based on the principles of "baby-sitting".
I'm not sure where you see me say non-GUE instructors can't teach... I know some absolutely phenomenal dive instructors that aren't GUE. What you may be inferring is that most dive instructors don't teach much... or well. Unfortunatly this is true. Of course they are a function of the industry that spawned them so it isn't really their fault. The goods ones are, unfortunately, trying to make the best of a misguided industry.

Remarks like the above are really a pet peeve of mine ... believe it or not, they come across as so condescending that they make it more difficult for me to sell my students on the value of the DIR program.
I suppose I could stick my head in the sand and not make any negative observations about the dive industry but that, quite frankly, would be irresponsible. To put my comment into context... without any alternative in the industry, even if someone wasn't going to dive "DIR" they would benefit from the DIRF just to learn how to dive "WELL". That quite frankly should not be true if all was healthy in our industry. (Qualifier: They might learn to dive well from a mentor or special instructor, but that won't be the norm, nor is it demanded by most dive course curriculum.)

I'm not typically accused of being condescending or belligerent. Quite frankly, I think you've probably been abused before by some over-zealous DIR advocate and you have become over sensitive of any negative views on the dive industry in general. Now, on the other hand, if you actually think all is well with the dive training agencies...
 
jumsted65:
Hey Chris,

Our local DIR-F instructor also teaches NAUI open water. You might put your friend in touch with him. Even if he's not avaialable, I'm sure he could make a good referral to a competent instructor. There are several shops in the Bay Area and Sacramento who are "DIR Friendly."

The important thing, IMHO, is to avoid wasting money on substandard gear. Many of us learned that lesson the hard way.

Speaking of learning the hard way, I overcame 8 ft. breakers, EMS and Coast Guard searching for lost divers, and panic-stricken students needing rescue (to name but a few obstacles) to wrap up my DIR-F yesterday. Woohoooo!

Josh
Hey Josh,

I figured that I would ask for a referral when it came time for my friends to learn. Since they don't dive yet they don't understand that winter is a great time to learn. They probably won't think about it again until next summer.

Congrats on your DIR-F "wrap up"! Did you overcome all of those obstacles on the same day?!

Christian
 
jumsted65:
Hey Chris,

Our local DIR-F instructor also teaches NAUI open water. You might put your friend in touch with him. Even if he's not avaialable, I'm sure he could make a good referral to a competent instructor. There are several shops in the Bay Area and Sacramento who are "DIR Friendly."

The important thing, IMHO, is to avoid wasting money on substandard gear. Many of us learned that lesson the hard way.

Speaking of learning the hard way, I overcame 8 ft. breakers, EMS and Coast Guard searching for lost divers, and panic-stricken students needing rescue (to name but a few obstacles) to wrap up my DIR-F yesterday. Woohoooo!

Josh


Who? Joe Talavera?

We live in San Jose.

BIG CONGRATS ON GRADUATING DIR F!!!!!!
 
headhunter:
That's what I'd like to find in an instructor for my friends in the Los Angeles area. I also think that this is what CALI68 is looking for.

Christian
PM "MHK" (Mike Kane) on this board -- he's from the LA area and is a DIR-F instructor. There a a couple shops in S Cal that teach the DIR philosophy form the get-go, which I think is what you're asking for...

For N Cal (CALI68), I'd try contacting someone in the BAUE (http://www.baue.org/) and ask for recommendations of local shops.

Roak
 
roakey:
PM "MHK" (Mike Kane) on this board -- he's from the LA area and is a DIR-F instructor. There a a couple shops in S Cal that teach the DIR philosophy form the get-go, which I think is what you're asking for...

For N Cal (CALI68), I'd try contacting someone in the BAUE (http://www.baue.org/) and ask for recommendations of local shops.

Roak
Thanks Roak. That's exactly what I'll do when my friends get serious about really starting a class. For now, they're just asking questions.

Christian
 
CALI68:
Who? Joe Talavera?

We live in San Jose.

BIG CONGRATS ON GRADUATING DIR F!!!!!!

Yup, I was referring to Joe.

Many of the BAUE folks use Any Water Sports. Others teach through Wallins. I'm not real sure on the specifics of who does what and where. Still learning the ropes myself.

As for the challenges Headhunter asked about...Yes, those listed were but a few on Sunday. It was, um, memorable. We couldn't have picked a more challenging day for that location. If it was any rougher I might have wussed out.

As for other challenges, feel free to check out the videos/report on http://www.joshumsted.com Might be helpful to those of you who haven't yet taken the class.

As they say, it's not about passing. It's about learning. Passing, however, feels good :)
 
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