Questions for DIR divers

[Leejnd]

As some of you in this forum know, I'm trying to decide what my next steps will be in terms of increasing my dive skills and education. I've been giving serious thought to exploring DIR, but I have many questions and concerns. I finally took some time to think about all the things that cause me to break out in hives when I even consider going DIR. So I wrote them out, and this is the result. Anyone want to tackle answering these?

1. Must I really abandon my computer? I totally get the concept of dive tables, but… (and I’m really reluctant to even mention this here, because I said this once on SB and got ripped to itty bitty shreds for it, and told that if I can’t handle something as simple as doing ratio decompression algorithms in my head on the fly, I should stay out of the water)…frankly I just hate math.

Hey, I’m a word person – I’m a writer, a training developer, a project manager, and I can whip up a truly transcendent chocolate soufflé that will make you cry – but I am NOT a numbers person. This does not mean I’m stupid. I just suck at math, and would rather do pretty much ANYTHING than long division, including stick needles in my eyes, or even :::shudder::: laundry. Yes I can do math if I have to – I did manage to get certified, after all, and even passed the Nitrox test – but I just don’t see the point of struggling with numbers when I’ve got a computer that will do all the work for me, and probably more accurately than I can. Is this giving control of my life to a machine that might fail? Well yes, I guess it is – just like I do every time I set foot on an airplane. But I still fly places.

As for doing decompression algorithms in my head, that sounds about as likely as me developing a cure for cancer while vacationing at my lovely little chalet on Mars. Heck, just using the word "algorithms" gives me the heebee jeebees. Do y’all really DO that?

2. Must I go all the way? Meaning: can I go sorta-DIR, applying some of the principles and/or equipment, but not all? Or would I then be viewed with disdain by *real* DIR divers, who would look at me as a poser, a pretender? Is it an all-or-nothing prospect, kinda like being pregnant?

3. Do DIR divers always use a drysuit? Frankly I like diving wet, even in cold water. Mainly because as far as I know, they have yet to solve the conundrum of a pee valve for ladies, which would be a serious drawback for me. (Yes I pee in my wetsuit. Sue me.)

4. This question comes via my husband: what would be the value of my going DIR if my usual dive buddy (the aforementioned husband) doesn’t? He is perfectly happy with his big ol’ jacket-style BC and his Scubapro Air 2, and has no interest in replacing his gear. He doesn’t dive nearly as often as I do, and I’m pretty much his only buddy – whereas I go diving pretty frequently without him, so I expect I would have plenty of opportunities to dive with other DIR divers. But most of my diving will continue to be with my non-DIR hubby. So is going DIR wasted on me if most of my dives are with him?

5. What the hell does “Hogarthian” even mean? I distinctly recall my high-school art teacher telling me that “Hogarthian” related to being satirical, like ye olde English artist William Hogarth. So what does a portly painter and political satirist from the 1700’s have to do with scuba? (I admit that high school was a very long time ago, so maybe that memory is really an acid flashback&#8230 Anyway, whatever it means, are all DIR divers “Hogarthian”? And to introduce even more word confusion, how about “Halcyon”, another word I see used in relation to DIR? Are all DIR divers “Halcyonian”? My high school ENGLISH teacher taught me that “halcyon” means calm, peaceful, joyful (and I’m pretty sure that’s NOT an acid flashback). So I guess the ultimate question is, what does a calm, happy, portly, satirical 18th century English artist have to do with DIR diving?

6. I’ve read that the DIR approach focuses heavily on physical fitness. I’m no slug, but I’m not the athlete I used to be either. I used to run marathons, but I injured my back a few years ago and had to stop, and I could use to lose some of this extra that I’ve packed on since then. What exactly are the fitness requirements to go DIR? Can a somewhat-less-than-fit 50-yr-old woman with a bad back, hot flashes, and a rather unhealthy addiction to Cap’n Crunch actually be considered DIR? Or will all you fit young pups take one look at this middle-aged broad in a BP/W, roll your eyes and say "stroke"?

7. And what exactly IS a “stroke”, and why does using that word seem to CAUSE actual strokes in some people?

8. Just how much is this gonna cost me? Should I go ahead get the loan approval for the second mortgage on my house now?

Just FYI, while I may have worded these questions a bit tongue-in-cheek, that's just cuz it's how I am. They are all serious questions, and answers from people in-the-know would be most appreciated as I give serious consideration to what direction I want to take my dive training.

Thanks much!

 

[Rainer]

Easier to go into more detail in person at one of the upcoming SoCal DIR events, but here are some quick thoughts.

1. Must I really abandon my computer? As for doing decompression algorithms in my head, that sounds about as likely as me developing a cure for cancer while vacationing at my lovely little chalet on Mars. Do y’all really DO that?

No. In fact, I'd say it's rather unsafe to just give up on the computer cold turkey and start trying to depth average and use tables without any practice. Rather, I'd suggest listening to the DIR rationale, giving it a fair shot, and then re-assessing. A conservative approach, where you're running the computer along with your brain for awhile will give you a better sense of whether it's really as needed as you might think. I've been quite happy with nothing more than gauge mode for several years.

2. Must I go all the way? Meaning: can I go sorta-DIR, applying some of the principles and/or equipment, but not all? Or would I then be viewed with disdain by *real* DIR divers, who would look at me as a poser, a pretender? Is it an all-or-nothing prospect, kinda like being pregnant?

"Real DIR divers" don't care what others do (for the most part). If there are parts of the system that can help your diving, USE THEM! Who cares what some might think? Ultimately, DIR *is* a system that does make use of its various components. Not being DIR, however, is hardly a crime. If it works for you, great, if not, that's cool, too.

3. Do DIR divers always use a drysuit? Frankly I like diving wet, even in cold water. Mainly because as far as I know, they have yet to solve the conundrum of a pee valve for ladies, which would be a serious drawback for me. (Yes I pee in my wetsuit. Sue me.)

Nope, but the few dives I do each year wet make me cry for my drysuit pretty quickly. For single cylinder, recreational diving here in SoCal, as long as you dive a balanced rig (meaning you can still surface with a BC failure), a wetsuit is fine. That said, have you tried a drysuit? Yes, they are a pain to learn, but they are sooo much more comfortable. And most of the women I'm diving with have pee valves installed (with various levels of success).

4. This question comes via my husband: what would be the value of my going DIR if my usual dive buddy (the aforementioned husband) doesn’t? He is perfectly happy with his big ol’ jacket-style BC and his Scubapro Air 2, and has no interest in replacing his gear. He doesn’t dive nearly as often as I do, and I’m pretty much his only buddy – whereas I go diving pretty frequently without him, so I expect I would have plenty of opportunities to dive with other DIR divers. But most of my diving will continue to be with my non-DIR hubby. So is going DIR wasted on me if most of my dives are with him?

Probably not. You being an even stronger diver, with new skills, certainly can't hurt. Yes, your diving with your husband might not be "DIR", but I'm willing to bet you'll enjoy those dives more with increased personal comfort and competence. And you can always do "cheat" dives with DIR divers. We won't tell.

5. What the hell does “Hogarthian” even mean? And to introduce even more word confusion, how about “Halcyon”, another word I see used in relation to DIR?

Hogarthian just refers to a gear configuration named after a diver (Hogarth) who used to dive it. It's commonly understood to cover (mostly) the geaer DIR divers use (e.g. backplate+wing, etc). Plenty of people who aren't "DIR" use such gear. It wasn't evented by DIR, but it is used by DIR. The gear alone is just a part of what it means to be DIR. Halcyon is a manufacturing company that makes a lot of "DIR compliant" gear. It's owned by the founder of GUE.

6. I’ve read that the DIR approach focuses heavily on physical fitness. I’m no slug, but I’m not the athlete I used to be either. I used to run marathons, but I injured my back a few years ago and had to stop, and I could use to lose some of this extra that I’ve packed on since then. What exactly are the fitness requirements to go DIR? Can a somewhat-less-than-fit 50-yr-old woman with a bad back, hot flashes, and a rather unhealthy addiction to Cap’n Crunch actually be considered DIR? Or will all you fit young pups take one look at this middle-aged broad in a BP/W, roll your eyes and say "stroke"?

A central tenet of DIR diving is to be safe. Physical fitness is an obvious component of diver safety. It matters more as the dives get harder/longer/bigger. If you're actively diving in SoCal already, you're quite fit to begin with. The "requirements" for an intro "DIR" class are rather minimal. Something like 400m swim in 15 minutes.

7. And what exactly IS a “stroke”, and why does using that word seem to CAUSE actual strokes in some people?

It's a term used to describe an unsafe diver. Historically it was abused, so is now quite pejorative. I try to avoid it. The concept, however, is still just as valid today as ever.

8. Just how much is this gonna cost me? Should I go ahead get the loan approval for the second mortgage on my house now?

Depends. Starting out (some gear tweaks and an intro course), it's not going to break the bank. As with many hobbies, you can spend more from there.

 

[berk]

You will certainly get your moneys worth taking the DIR Fundamentals class or any GUE class for that matter. GUE has top notch instructors. Seeing different gear configurations and learning different philosophies is always good.

I'm not sure if just the fundamentals course is enough to get on the same page to do basic dives with DIR types, but I image so. (it's been a long time since I took it) Someone can answer that one. Not the case as you get more advanced.

-matt

 

[kyjellyfish]

Hi LeeAnne,
I was in your position about a month ago. I had an opportunity to talk to GUE divers in my area and the more I read about the principles, skills and gear the more it made sense. I had never given much thought about going tech; I just wanted to learn how to be in control and be a safe diver. That's how I came across GUE Primer. It's a no-pressure, great introduction to DIR diving. You're taught skills and get to dive in full-DIR gear in a setting where you're not concerned about passing or failing. You're also given instructional and video feedback, both great teaching tools. As mentioned, the course is not expensive considering the amount and quality of individual attention you get from top notch instructors (Steve was a kickass guy). The experience has made me a more confident diver and I'm excited about using/practicing all of the things I learned and look forward to progressing to the next level with Fundies.

Ken

 

[leabre]

It would be better to discuss some of this than to write it up.

1. Must I really abandon my computer? I totally get the concept of dive tables, but… (and I’m really reluctant to even mention this here, because I said this once on SB and got ripped to itty bitty shreds for it, and told that if I can’t handle something as simple as doing ratio decompression algorithms in my head on the fly, I should stay out of the water)…frankly I just hate math.

No, you do not have to abondon your computer. Ratio Deco is a strategy, it can have some advantages. For example, it provides you a way to continue diving if your computer dies (happened to me many times but I didn't know RD and had to forego the remaining dives on the boat). RD can be learned very quickly, but it will take practice to become proficient at; during which time using a computer is a wise thing to do.

It helps for gas planning and management while on a boat but the main thing about "team" diving is that what decisions are made about dive plan, are made and agreed upon by the team. So if a member doesn't want to do this in their head (before or during the dive) then the team can switch to computer or tables (hopefully everyone is using the same computer otherwise you'll all agree on a depth, time, and PSI to turn back. RD helps to adjust those parameters in-flight but there's nothing wrong with using a computer.

After 100 dives since going DIR I sometimes use my computer to help check what my brain is thinking, computers do not always match RD, but I've decided to practice RD as much as possible. When I dive with someone who prefers to use computer or tables, I'll just do the same. Keeps us on the same dive plan more or less, and that is also DIR. Decisions are made as a team, not an individual.

2. Must I go all the way? Meaning: can I go sorta-DIR, applying some of the principles and/or equipment, but not all? Or would I then be viewed with disdain by *real* DIR divers, who would look at me as a poser, a pretender? Is it an all-or-nothing prospect, kinda like being pregnant?

Certainly Not! What you'll learn in a UTD Essentials/GUE Fundies is basically a system of diving that leads to better enjoyment of diving and environmental awareness. Some of it includes skills, knowledge, and gear configuration. You are not obligated to change your lifestyle.

In fact you are not even required to progress to higher training. But if you do progress into higher training, some of those skills learned will definately have to be refined to succeed but the extent to which you choose to refine and progress depends on you. There are no scuba police that will make sure you do anything one way or another.

If you do not want to progress to tech, wreck, or cave, that's your choice. Take from the training what makes sense for you and just enjoy diving. Fish don't care whether you're DIR or not. When I dive with people I don't, either.

3. Do DIR divers always use a drysuit?

No! I do not think there's a rule book that says to be DIR you must dive dry. What happens when your DS is out of commision? Should you be required to have a second one on-hand or to spend money renting? Nope, mine was out of commision the past few weeks so I dove wet. That makes me no less DIR than if I had dived dry.

Whether you get cold or not may effect the duration of a dive... but... you can get cold in a DS, too (it can fail, you can have insufficient undergarment, maybe you had too many osyters the day before, who knows).

One of my very best dive buds wears 14mm of neoprene and she still gets cold and usually can only last about 20 minutes here in SoCal. I'm fully aware I won't be diving 60 minutes when we're diving but I dive wither her anyway (we are just dive buds, nothing more) because she's an enjoyable person to dive with, DS or not, short dives or not.

4. This question comes via my husband: what would be the value of my going DIR if my usual dive buddy (the aforementioned husband) doesn’t? He is perfectly happy with his big ol’ jacket-style BC and his Scubapro Air 2... So is going DIR wasted on me if most of my dives are with him?

There's plenty of value. The training you'll receive eventually causes you to become very relaxed, proficient with your gear, very confident in your dive planning and gas management, able to handle certain failures that you're ready for at the level of training you've progressed to... which eventually leads to enjoy your dive much more, and not to mention, become that much more valuable of a dive buddy no matter who you dive with.

My wife is not DIR and we dive together, and many of my buddies are not DIR and show no interest, it doesn't prevent me from diving with them (I even dive with strangers on occasion who aren't DIR). At one point I wasn't DIR and some DIR divers dove with me.

There is a time or place for like-minded buddies where similar training and mindset matters but for run of the mill recreational diving most DIR divers will dive with just about anyone.

5. What the hell does “Hogarthian” even mean?... Anyway, whatever it means, are all DIR divers “Hogarthian”? And to introduce even more word confusion, how about “Halcyon”, another word I see used in relation to DIR? Are all DIR divers “Halcyonian”?

During the WKPP exploration there was an individual (Bill Hogarth Main) that dove a back plate and wing with continuous webbing and that's why it is called hogarthian. Halcyon is the name of a dive equipment manufacturer that produces such gear. There are other manufacturers (DSS, DiveRite, etc.) of hogarthian equipment (it is also a configuration, generally a "minimalist" configuration in a certain manner).

6. I’ve read that the DIR approach focuses heavily on physical fitness. I’m no slug, but I’m not the athlete I used to be either.... Or will all you fit young pups take one look at this middle-aged broad in a BP/W, roll your eyes and say "stroke"?

As you dive deeper, longer, more remote (lugging gear for miles through tropical rain forest??) physical fitness becomes more important. Also, the more fit you are you may obsorb less nitrogen which may or may not contribute to DCS. You should be fit enough to safely conduct the dive and I'd say many people diving locally are fit enough for the dive they conduct.

Even for me the more I dive doubles and reach interesting shore location and durations I can feel it in my body the need to become more fit, especially if I fight surf in doubles but no one is saying you have to run marathons or triathalons.

7. And what exactly IS a “stroke”, and why does using that word seem to CAUSE actual strokes in some people?

It has morphed into an insulting term. It originally was meant to refer to an unsafe diver, become a diver that does things differently and hence the insult of it. Kind of like some people get worked up over DIR because it could imply everyone else is doing it wrong, that kind of thing. An unsafe diver is someone who is doing something they are not trained for, or improperly executing a dive they are trained for.

For example, a recreational diver entering a cave is unsafe without training, gear, and preperation. A cave diver diving the cave very sick or ill-prepared for the dive could be unsafe (maybe he only brought one light and no backups that day or forgot the check the batteries of the backups).... such things might have been refered to as a "stroke" back in the day.

My knowledge is not definitive as I was not involved in diving back then enough to be authoritive.

8. Just how much is this gonna cost me? Should I go ahead get the loan approval for the second mortgage on my house now?

How much it costs you is up to you. If someone gives your their gear, it'll cost you nothing I think the minimal amount of gear investment would be a BP/w and long hose (I think that training requires only that much to begin with). Whether you make other tweaks or training that requires investment is up to you.

Just FYI, while I may have worded these questions a bit tongue-in-cheek, that's just cuz it's how I am. They are all serious questions, and answers from people in-the-know would be most appreciated as I give serious consideration to what direction I want to take my dive training.

The fact that tongue-in-cheek was even necessary (or mentioned) is a testament that somewhere along the line a few weiners tarnished the reputation of DIR in general by introducing stigma. The DIR style of diving is supposed to endorse safety and enjoyment. Causing strife reduces enjoyment for everone, even the perp.

So ask away, don't worry about how you sound. Just remember, in the end, we're all trying to achieve the same thing and the fish don't care whether you're DIR or not.

 

[leabre]

Hi LeeAnne,
I was in your position about a month ago. I had an opportunity to talk to GUE divers in my area and the more I read about the principles, skills and gear the more it made sense. I had never given much thought about going tech; I just wanted to learn how to be in control and be a safe diver. That's how I came across GUE Primer. It's a no-pressure, great introduction to DIR diving. You're taught skills and get to dive in full-DIR gear in a setting where you're not concerned about passing or failing. You're also given instructional and video feedback, both great teaching tools. As mentioned, the course is not expensive considering the amount and quality of individual attention you get from top notch instructors (Steve was a kickass guy). The experience has made me a more confident diver and I'm excited about using/practicing all of the things I learned and look forward to progressing to the next level with Fundies.

Ken

This is how I got started. It was originally for me to just improve my diving abilities but eventually I bought into it and decided to pursue it further.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

During the WKPP exploration there was an individual (last name "Hogarth") that dove a back plate and wing with continuous webbing and that's why it is called hogarthian.

Bill "Hogarth" Main is his name.
http://www.silent-submersion.com/hogarthian/

 

[TSandM]

Taking a Fundamentals class or a Primer is not like enlisting in the military. You can change your mind The skills you'll be taught, and the standard of diving you'll be shown, will be useful, no matter what decisions you make later. I dive with a number of people who have deviated quite significantly from the full system, but they are still safe and fun buddies, in part because of the skills and mindset they took away from their training.

There are some parts of the DIR system that are really interdependent and don't isolate well. For example, having your buddy carry your spare gas really REQUIRES a commitment to keeping a team together, which means strong situational awareness. Solving a freeflow by going on your buddy's long hose and turning off your tank means you have to be able to execute an air-sharing ascent competently.

Other things isolate fine -- good buoyancy control, non-silting propulsion, doing a smooth bag shoot are all skills that work in any environment.

You can certainly dive the gear configuration and use some of the skills, no matter what you call yourself. If you're a good, aware diver with good personal skills, nobody is going to call you a stroke.

As Rainer said, most of us continued to use a dive computer for a while after Fundies. It takes time to learn to do the depth averaging calculations and feel confident in them. If you don't want to learn it and want to continue to dive your computer, it WILL get in the way of dive planning with other DIR divers, because what we do doesn't always track very well with recreational dive computers. Since your computer can't know that you are going to do some staged decompression on EVERY dive, it can't factor that into your bottom time.

Lots of DIR divers dive wetsuits, when wetsuits are appropriate. Heavy wetsuits don't fit the canon very well, and they'll show you why. BTW, She-P's are great

Hogarthian refers to an equipment configuration that Bill Hogarth Main developed. It's a configuration used by a lot of technical and cave divers, and is not specifically DIR, but the DIR system was designed around it.

Halcyon is a manufacturing company owned in part by Jarrod Jablonski, who is head of GUE, which is one of the agencies teaching DIR diving. Halcyon exists because at the time it was started, nobody was making gear that met the DIR requirements. There are lots of choices now, and you are not constrained to use any one brand.

Fitness is part of being DIR. It just is. You can take Fundies and do OW dives with a minimum level of it (but you will have to pass the Fundies swim test). As you get into more demanding diving, you really begin to understand why the requirements are what they are (and the implied requirements are higher). Lack of fitness contributed a significant amount to my problems with my Cave 2 class -- not because the instructor was whupping our asses, but because the cave was. The fitness requirements, in my experience, are the parameter of DIR diving honored most in the breach, rather than the observance.

A stroke is an unsafe diver. IF somebody wants to go do a bounce dive to 200 feet on an Al80, he's a stroke. In reality, the term is almost always used nowadays by one DIR diver in reference to another, and in jest. But the basic principle is the same -- don't dive with people if what they are doing doesn't sit well with you from a safety standpoint.

As far as cost goes, you have to talk to the instructor about that. My Fundies class was $300, but the class is longer and more comprehensive now, and I'm sure it costs more. But hour for hour, it will be the best value you've had to date for scuba instruction. I guarantee that.

The hardest question is the one about whether it's worth doing the class if you are going to dive with your husband, who isn't going to take it. I took Fundies in November of 2005, over my husband's strong objections. As we continued to dive together, he watched what I was doing and began to adopt some of it. He got converted to a BP/W when we were given some scooter crack in Monterey. And a year and a half later, he took Fundies himself. You may find that your husband, as he dives with you and your newly acquired "DIR" friends, will begin to see some things he wants for himself. I can tell you that there are a few things you're going to find hard to cope with, after you've done a fair amount of diving with people trained this way-- you aren't going to have much tolerance for silt and reduced viz, and you're going to want EVERYBODY to have good lights and good light discipline

 

[stargost]

4. This question comes via my husband: what would be the value of my going DIR if my usual dive buddy (the aforementioned husband) doesn’t? He is perfectly happy with his big ol’ jacket-style BC and his Scubapro Air 2, and has no interest in replacing his gear. He doesn’t dive nearly as often as I do, and I’m pretty much his only buddy – whereas I go diving pretty frequently without him, so I expect I would have plenty of opportunities to dive with other DIR divers. But most of my diving will continue to be with my non-DIR hubby. So is going DIR wasted on me if most of my dives are with him?

I think this is likely the more "difficult" question you'll face: indeed, if you go DIR by yourself only, I would guess your preferred buddy will be willing to do the same after some time too.
The trick is it would have been valuable to take a fundie class together.

But if not, the important knowledge can be transferred, the gear is secondary and in anycase, you should both come to the pic-nic !!

 

[Leejnd]

Wow, THANKS everyone! I haven't had a chance to read all the answers in detail yet, but I'll do that as soon as I can. (I'm heading out at 5am to San Pedro to board the Mr. C for a full weekend of diving.) I really appreciate all the comprehensive answers, and I will read through it all.

The fact that tongue-in-cheek was even necessary (or mentioned) is a testament that somewhere along the line a few weiners tarnished the reputation of DIR in general by introducing stigma. The DIR style of diving is supposed to endorse safety and enjoyment. Causing strife reduces enjoyment for everone, even the perp.

Yes, you're right - I did have some bad experiences with DIR divers, which I've posted about in the past. It was very intimidating, and in a couple cases actually quite upsetting. I wouldn't have even considered this if it wasn't for the friendly reaching-out I've been seeing in the SoCal forum from the local DIR divers - a very different behavior than I've seen in the past from some of the DIR divers I've encountered. I don't know if things have changed in the DIR world, or if I was just having bad luck and encountering the wrong people - but it's definitely been intriguing.

Thanks again! Responses to follow probably Sunday, after I get back.