Questions for DIR divers

[fnfalman]

LeeAnne,

Go talk with the Hollywood Divers people about training. They offer a bunch of technical diving trainings and stock all the gears that you need.

 

[on_two_wheels]

Personally, I think it's like prejudices. In public people say the "right thing" and then with their own or when two or more get one of the different ones isolated, the other comments come out. I love a lot of things about the DIR way of doing things but I have also been "talked down to" by a GUE instructor. That one experience made me lose interest. Just recently have I had any interest and even now, it's just because of the level of skill it requires. I love the HOG set up but I'll never had a DIR rig. I use a hand held flashlight and don't see not using a computer in my future.

My goal in seeking further info and possibly some training is to be as skilled during the dives I do as a DIR diver would be. Not referring to deco math and such since I don't do deco dives. But my buoyancy skills, propulsion skills, navigational skills, buddy skills, etc, etc. could be developed to the DIR level....hopefully.

Fortunately for all of us, I sense this forum attracts some of the more open minded DIR divers rather than the ones like I've encountered offline. Leanne, thanks for asking these and Rainer, leabre and TSandM....thank you for the responses. Good reading.

 

[on_two_wheels]

LeeAnne,

Go talk with the Hollywood Divers people about training. They offer a bunch of technical diving trainings and stock all the gears that you need.

And they'll tell you how anything other than Halcyon is 2nd rate. That said, Karim taught a friend OW and she's doing great. Another friend of mine is a highly skilled diver and said Karim's in-water skills were the best he'd seen. So all kidding aside, I 2nd the suggestion if you decide to go that route.

 

[TSandM]

It helps for gas planning and management while on a boat but the main thing about "team" diving is that what decisions are made about dive plan, are made and agreed upon by the team. So if a member doesn't want to do this in their head (before or during the dive) then the team can switch to computer or tables (hopefully everyone is using the same computer otherwise you'll all agree on a depth, time, and PSI to turn back. RD helps to adjust those parameters in-flight but there's nothing wrong with using a computer.

I read this last night and it bothered me a little bit, so I thought I'd address it this morning.

There are lots of GUE and UTD trained divers out there. Taking the training and using the equipment does not make one "DIR". (In fact, a lot of folks with more experience and longevity in diving than I have will say there is no such thing as a DIR diver, only DIR dives.) If you have a team that decides to plan and execute a dive by using their Suunto computers, it's a dive team, but it's not DIR. Similarly, someone using inadequate exposure protection for the proposed dive is not doing a DIR dive, because having appropriate exposure protection is part of being a well-prepared diver.

I try to be as "DIR" as I can, and it isn't trivial. It means having the discipline to have the right equipment for the job and keep it maintained, and the right gas for the dive, even if it costs more. It meant an ENORMOUS amount of practice to bring my skills up to where I'm not the weak link in a team, and where I can communicate effectively. It means not "settling for" something that isn't optimal (although I'll be the first to admit that I could have more diligence in the fitness department). "DIR", as I have come to understand it, is a mindset of really doing it RIGHT -- not cutting corners, not getting sloppy, not taking unnecessary risks.

GUE or UTD training will benefit anybody who takes it. Some of those people will buy into the ideas and try to live by them. Others will take the improved skills and use them in other ways or on other kinds of dives.

 

[fdog]

It's the journey that is important, not the endpoint.

Take the class, learn all the skills and procedures and philosophies, and then integrate what you need into your daily diving. Don't worry about whether you end up a "DIR diver".


All the best, James



PS - I'll add that there should be a 2 month no-post condition imposed on Fundies/Essentials grads...

 

[Bob Sherwood]

Leeann
A lot of people have responded to your questions with good answers so I won't repeat them, but I did want to add something to the discussion.
Past reputation from the DIR standpoint has alienated many people from jumping into a class. It is sad that people have missed the opportunity to learn and improve their diving from quality instructors for these reasons. Members of the wkpp invented DIR, and since it has been twisted into sometimes not recognizable. I have seen many that claim to be DIR, that are in reality the farthest from it. So first, you should decide what it is about your diving that you like, and what you would like to improve. then seek out the best avenue to achieve that.
There are many talented scuba educators out there that will treat you with respect and encourage improvement in your sport.Several have been mentioned already in ths thread. I strongly reccomend that you get in touch with Steve Millington(L.A. SCUBA DIVING : Professional Scuba Instruction - Los Angeles, California 818.749.3483), as he is one of the nicest and easiest going people you will ever meet. Very patient understanding and eager to work woth those interested in improveing overall diving performance. He often teaches smaller primer/fundamentals classes and has excellent reviews. (Steve and I will be co-teaching in CA this year around December/January timeframe it anyone wants a double shot) <VBG>
Adopting a philosophy will come over time, and as already mentioned you as an individual should be the sole source of determining what is best for you. I always tell people that they should enter any class open minded and willing to try and embrace whatever is being offered during the course and then upon completion decide for themselves what has value and what does not. It is a process......never ending. Enjoy the journey!!! Best, Bob

As some of you in this forum know, I'm trying to decide what my next steps will be in terms of increasing my dive skills and education. I've been giving serious thought to exploring DIR, but I have many questions and concerns. I finally took some time to think about all the things that cause me to break out in hives when I even consider going DIR. So I wrote them out, and this is the result. Anyone want to tackle answering these?

1. Must I really abandon my computer? I totally get the concept of dive tables, but… (and I’m really reluctant to even mention this here, because I said this once on SB and got ripped to itty bitty shreds for it, and told that if I can’t handle something as simple as doing ratio decompression algorithms in my head on the fly, I should stay out of the water)…frankly I just hate math.

Hey, I’m a word person – I’m a writer, a training developer, a project manager, and I can whip up a truly transcendent chocolate soufflé that will make you cry – but I am NOT a numbers person. This does not mean I’m stupid. I just suck at math, and would rather do pretty much ANYTHING than long division, including stick needles in my eyes, or even :::shudder::: laundry. Yes I can do math if I have to – I did manage to get certified, after all, and even passed the Nitrox test – but I just don’t see the point of struggling with numbers when I’ve got a computer that will do all the work for me, and probably more accurately than I can. Is this giving control of my life to a machine that might fail? Well yes, I guess it is – just like I do every time I set foot on an airplane. But I still fly places.

As for doing decompression algorithms in my head, that sounds about as likely as me developing a cure for cancer while vacationing at my lovely little chalet on Mars. Heck, just using the word "algorithms" gives me the heebee jeebees. Do y’all really DO that?

2. Must I go all the way? Meaning: can I go sorta-DIR, applying some of the principles and/or equipment, but not all? Or would I then be viewed with disdain by *real* DIR divers, who would look at me as a poser, a pretender? Is it an all-or-nothing prospect, kinda like being pregnant?

3. Do DIR divers always use a drysuit? Frankly I like diving wet, even in cold water. Mainly because as far as I know, they have yet to solve the conundrum of a pee valve for ladies, which would be a serious drawback for me. (Yes I pee in my wetsuit. Sue me.)

4. This question comes via my husband: what would be the value of my going DIR if my usual dive buddy (the aforementioned husband) doesn’t? He is perfectly happy with his big ol’ jacket-style BC and his Scubapro Air 2, and has no interest in replacing his gear. He doesn’t dive nearly as often as I do, and I’m pretty much his only buddy – whereas I go diving pretty frequently without him, so I expect I would have plenty of opportunities to dive with other DIR divers. But most of my diving will continue to be with my non-DIR hubby. So is going DIR wasted on me if most of my dives are with him?

5. What the hell does “Hogarthian” even mean? I distinctly recall my high-school art teacher telling me that “Hogarthian” related to being satirical, like ye olde English artist William Hogarth. So what does a portly painter and political satirist from the 1700’s have to do with scuba? (I admit that high school was a very long time ago, so maybe that memory is really an acid flashback…) Anyway, whatever it means, are all DIR divers “Hogarthian”? And to introduce even more word confusion, how about “Halcyon”, another word I see used in relation to DIR? Are all DIR divers “Halcyonian”? My high school ENGLISH teacher taught me that “halcyon” means calm, peaceful, joyful (and I’m pretty sure that’s NOT an acid flashback). So I guess the ultimate question is, what does a calm, happy, portly, satirical 18th century English artist have to do with DIR diving?

6. I’ve read that the DIR approach focuses heavily on physical fitness. I’m no slug, but I’m not the athlete I used to be either. I used to run marathons, but I injured my back a few years ago and had to stop, and I could use to lose some of this extra that I’ve packed on since then. What exactly are the fitness requirements to go DIR? Can a somewhat-less-than-fit 50-yr-old woman with a bad back, hot flashes, and a rather unhealthy addiction to Cap’n Crunch actually be considered DIR? Or will all you fit young pups take one look at this middle-aged broad in a BP/W, roll your eyes and say "stroke"?

7. And what exactly IS a “stroke”, and why does using that word seem to CAUSE actual strokes in some people?

8. Just how much is this gonna cost me? Should I go ahead get the loan approval for the second mortgage on my house now?

Just FYI, while I may have worded these questions a bit tongue-in-cheek, that's just cuz it's how I am. They are all serious questions, and answers from people in-the-know would be most appreciated as I give serious consideration to what direction I want to take my dive training.

Thanks much!

 

[leabre]

I read this last night and it bothered me a little bit, so I thought I'd address it this morning.

There are lots of GUE and UTD trained divers out there. Taking the training and using the equipment does not make one "DIR". (In fact, a lot of folks with more experience and longevity in diving than I have will say there is no such thing as a DIR diver, only DIR dives.) If you have a team that decides to plan and execute a dive by using their Suunto computers, it's a dive team, but it's not DIR. Similarly, someone using inadequate exposure protection for the proposed dive is not doing a DIR dive, because having appropriate exposure protection is part of being a well-prepared diver.

I wasn't implying that one can cut corners and still be DIR... DIR is what it is, cut corners and it's not! That's not a point I was attempting to address one way or the other.

The context of her entire post (OP) is a concern about whether she'll remain both a compatible diver with her non-DIR buddies and with her new DIR buddies if she chooses to use a computer or wetsuit or not press iron daily at the gym. My answer is simply that that with her new training she could be a very good buddy to her non-DIRs and a good buddy to a like trainned diver, as well. What one does may not be DIR but for most recreational diving should not be a contraindication to diving with them. Many of my buds (DIR or otherwise) use a wetsuit and/or computer and that does not affect my willingness to dive with them.

Regarding using a computer and still being DIR: the point here is not not rely on the computer which could fail... if you choose to further pursue into tech diving it's more important. But at the recreational level using a computer is not a bad thing and certainly doing so will not preclude me (or most other DIR divers I know) from diving with someone who does. Me, personally, when I dive based on computer (only happened a few times in the past 100 dives) or not, I always employ the min-deco ascent strategy and discuss it in advance with my dive partner(s). Usually they agree but end up taking their 3 @ 15' regardless because that's what they understand (in addition to the min-deco ascent).

I make my comments in the context of the type of diving the OP states she'll be doing which reads to me like run-of-the-mill open water recreation, not a 200' deep mile long cave penetration where where adhering to the principles of DIR are far more critical.

But you make a good point; one that I'll keep in mind in future discussions.

 

[Codyjp]

Wow, THANKS everyone! I haven't had a chance to read all the answers in detail yet, but I'll do that as soon as I can. (I'm heading out at 5am to San Pedro to board the Mr. C for a full weekend of diving.) I really appreciate all the comprehensive answers, and I will read through it all.



Yes, you're right - I did have some bad experiences with DIR divers, which I've posted about in the past. It was very intimidating, and in a couple cases actually quite upsetting. I wouldn't have even considered this if it wasn't for the friendly reaching-out I've been seeing in the SoCal forum from the local DIR divers - a very different behavior than I've seen in the past from some of the DIR divers I've encountered. I don't know if things have changed in the DIR world, or if I was just having bad luck and encountering the wrong people - but it's definitely been intriguing.

Thanks again! Responses to follow probably Sunday, after I get back.

The DIR/GUE/UTD community is in my opinion wonderful. I've had some wonderful mentors and support and have met so many great people. Both in and out of the water they are top notch. We did a DIR beach day a few weeks back, we ended up spending 13 hours at the beach and local Pho restaurant just having fun.

Unfortunately there are some bad seeds running around the boards spreading a bad rep for the community but it certainly isn't what you'd encounter amongst the majority.

Bob, incoming PM regarding your visit! Also, your missing the blue whales from the sky right now!

 

[Eau_Girl]

LeeAnne,

Thanks so much for you post. I've been thinking about DIR and your questions are the ones I've been asking myself.

Thanks to all those resonding.....I'll read with interest!

 

[ligersandtions]

Hey LeeAnn! Thanks for posting your questions....it seems that many/most of them have been answered, so I'm just going to hit on a couple of them.

Drysuits....have you ever dived a drysuit? I'm like Rainer....the few dives I do in a wetsuit have me desperate to get my drysuit back. I've done one dive in a drysuit in socal in the past year and I was freezing! I honestly don't know how you do it, so I have to admit that I am impressed. That said, if you want to be comfortable on multiple dives, a drysuit really makes it that much more enjoyable. I know when we dive the Spectre, most of the wetsuit divers are sitting out the fourth dive, whereas the drysuit divers are ready to jump back in!

As for the female peeing issue....they do have p-valve option for the women. It's called a she-p and it allows us to go while diving. It's not as simple as the mens version....and it's definitely not as simple as just going in a wetsuit. But it's worth it....even when I end up with a bit of pee on myself, most of it is still going outside of the suit and I can hydrate myself properly, which is very important to me.

As for whether you must go dry, you don't have to. That said, if you ever want to dive double steel cylinders, you should certainly be in a drysuit as you will need the redundant buoyancy. But if you're not planning on going that far, there should be no issue sticking with the drysuit provided you don't get so cold thus reducing your situational awareness.


Regarding cost, making the transition can be fairly inexpensive....or you could end up being a gear ***** like me and make it pretty expensive! Really, though, selling your current BC and buying a bp/w would be a very minimal cost. Swapping a standard reg hose for a long hose and 22" hose for a necklaced back-up is also quite minimal. Don't know what fins you're diving, but that's a pretty cheap swap as well

Then again, you could fall in love with that drysuit, doubles, scooters, classes, etc....and then you could be broke


Regarding the husband....mine was like that at first as well. He didn't get why I wanted to do this whole "DIR thing"....and as I started diving with other local divers and adopting their methods, he got very insecure about diving with me and my buddies. That was the last thing I wanted....and eventually, he started to understand the things that made sense because I took the time to explain it to him and show him. If you can be a better buddy for your husband (you have the awareness to know where he is and if there are any problems, you won't be silting him out, you'll have redundant breathing gas available and ready to donate to him, etc), he may well come around to this way of diving. Obviously, you don't want to go all nazi on him....and you don't want to force it on him. But if you can show him what it is you like and why, it may well go a lot further than just telling him that the two of you should take a class or whatever.


Finally, regarding instructors and classes, I'm going to second Bob's opinion and STRONGLY recommend you talk with Steve Millington about your transition. Talk to him about setting up a Primer class....talk to him about getting out and diving with him (he's one of the local instructors that I've come across who's happy to go out and do a fun, recreational dive with recreational divers). I *think* you said you signed up for the GUE Demo day, which will be a great opportunity for you to talk with Steve and see if you can set something up....also a great time to try out the bp/w and long hose and whatever else!

BTW, I have a friend who might be interested in taking a Primer class in the future....would be really cool if you two were able to work it out and take it together


Please, please let me know if you have any other questions and when you'd like to get out and dive! I hope our schedules align sometime soon as I'd love to meet you and dive with you

Nicole