Recertification?

[Dragon2115]

LOL ..... i haven't been called PC in a long time .... no wait, i don't think i've ever been called PC. First time for everything i guess.

I know, you're a target shooter. I saw your profile. See how easy it is to slip away from the light? And you didn't even realize it was happening.

Heres a idea dragon, how about staying on topic. Your opinion on whats considered PC and what isn't, has nothing to do with this thread.

You want to debate PC-ness and/or how it relates to scuba training today, start a thread. Otherwise, stay on topic in this one.

Here's an idea Jon, pay attention. I'm sorry if you can't see it but I was on topic, and yes, it everything to do with this thread. Lets try this one more time and see if you get it.

When you decided to step in and arbitrarily apply your power as moderator by editting my post, you gave because "Many people don't care to see that name used in vain." as your justification. (At this juncture I won't get into the details about why where this is just your PERSONAL opinion it made what you did an arbitrary act.) Without realizing it you became a perfect example of what I was talking about. You supressed how I wanted to say something simply because you felt that certain people wouldn't care for it. The training agencies do the same thing when they don't tell the operators they are obligated to refuse training to anyone that obviously isn't fit to do so. They don't want to be non-pc by telling a customer what they don't want to hear, which might be personally offensive like, 'I'm sorry but I have to refuse to take you as a student because of your physical condition." Let me tell you something, here in the U.S., you better be able to prove that in a court of law because you're going to be staring at the wrong end of a lawsuit under the Americans with Disabilities Act for not reasonably "accommodating" their condition. And even if you win, you're going to lose because you'll still have your legal fees and lost wages to make up for. So what's the easiest way out for the agencies, the operators, and the instructors? Just like someone already pointed out, take their money and hope they don't keel over while they're still on your charter/class/boat/propety. As a result there are more and more poorly trained divers out there which leads to more accidents and deaths which brings about the calls for diver recertification. Otoh however, if the agencies/operators/instructors could stop worrying about being sued they could focus on training student divers properly.

 

[rainmaker]

In the last few months, I've spent over $3,000 on classes and gear.

I was certified in February 2005 at age 57. Frankly, if recertification had been an issue, I wouldn't have bothered to take the classes. And I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way.

 

[Dragon2115]

My brothers keeper...

But part of being your brothers keeper is having faith in him to make his own choices in life, for better or worse.

 

[Scuba]

Several points for consideration.

Could the type of accidents discussed in the other thread been prevented with a certification program? I don't believe this case has been proven or been convincingly argued.

The stats say many of these divers are fairly inexperienced. Have they been recently certified? Do they dive infrequently? Is the diver who has very few dives or doesn't dive after certification for X period of time at a much higher risk of accident than the diver conducting the same number of subsequent dives right after certification? These critical questions have not been answered. Supporting stats or arguments?

If these accidents are just as likely to happen soon after certification, then a similiar re-certification at a later time would not have much impact. A case for a more stringent re-certification is a case for a more stringent original certification. If these accidents largely occur only after a significant lapse of inactivity after certifying, then re-certification would have a positive impact before diving again. The inactivity issue could be researched using experienced divers as well.

Since fitness can very greatly in a short period of time. Some type of fitness test would have to be fairly frequent to have much meaning. Otherwise, other methods to judge fitness are best employed by those interested in this matter. Test dive for observation, other forms of inquiry.

If research where to demonstrate that a re-certification program would help to reduce accidents, then an adequate program capable of addressing the issue should be considered. Not one that portends to address the issue but does not. Such a program would serve few but obstruct many. The target divers who could benefit from this would need to be identified and exceptions made for those who do not fit within this criteria.

The point would be to address the issue from both a diver and industry safety effort perpective. There are commercial interests who would take advantage of the situation as a reason to profit from divers. Well meaning intentions must be tempered with caution, specially when facing an industry, where in my "opinion", many primarily address the safety issue from a liability perspective, as opposed to a diver safety perspective. May appear to be one and same but there are differences. Whole other can of worms, but completely relevant.

Until some of these key questions are answered, my vote is no. Some dive ops have already instituted programs to fairly adequately deal with this issue. Show log book, level of certification, inquiry, test dive.

The stats I have seen appear to make this issue primarily of relevance in regards to inexperienced and infrequent divers. To an advanced diver making a demanding dive I would say re-certs would be fairly meaningless for the following reasons. What is important is: Is the buddy or participating diver trained to the level required of the dive? What is his experience in this type of dives? Is he/she up to par for the current dive at this time? Test dive, log book, conversation would answer these questions in a meaningful way that simply accepting someones credentials without further knowledge of the person would not. But to each his own.

In regards to trying to save others from themselves, I would just say that as much as I hate to say it, and fully aware of the potential for abuse, there are certain things applicable to each of us in which a little guidance and protection would be to everyones benefit. Darwins survival of the fittest has to be seen withing context. It is ultimately natures way, but sometimes through "luck" or in the case of humans through working together as a society, unfit weaklings survive long enough to thrive, prosper and payback the favor in a different climate. I am not saying this is always the case. Just that an all or nothing perspective, in my opinion, misses the complexity of the issue. No one said life was simple. But the wonderful?.... thing about the human mind is that we can make our world as we deem. All are very real, some just don't apply too well to external worlds. Enough philosophizing for now.

 

[drbill]

Again my thread that initiated the re-certification discussion (or actually just resurrected it) deals only with divers who have not done a sufficient number of dives within a defined time period. Based on the poll that I initiated, only about 5% of ScubaBoard members would need re-certification. Those who did just one average dive vacation a year would not need to re-certify... ever.

 

[Scuba]

Again my thread that initiated the re-certification discussion (or actually just resurrected it) deals only with divers who have not done a sufficient number of dives within a defined time period. Based on the poll that I initiated, only about 5% of ScubaBoard members would need re-certification. Those who did just one average dive vacation a year would not need to re-certify... ever.

Understood, drbill.

I wouldn't place to much emphasis on this poll though. Even though this is a general scuba board and there are many beginners here, possibly the simply fact they have made the the effort to seek out a board such as this one may indicate a higher interest and dedication to the sport than a general diver population sampling.

Catalina's Casino Point would be a great place for some serious research on many issues frequently encountered there, which affect various segments of the diving population. This sport is in need of better data collection, analysis, and research in general Who's willing to pay? Another thread mentions the problem with raw data. The problem is not raw data, this can be analyzed - but poor data, where you can't have confidence in the analysis.

 

[D_B]

.... "they don't tell the operators they are obligated to refuse training to anyone that obviously isn't fit to do so." ... "take their money and hope they don't keel over while they're still on your charter/class/boat/propety. As a result there are more and more poorly trained divers out there which leads to more accidents and deaths which brings about the calls for diver recertification. Otoh however, if the agencies/operators/instructors could stop worrying about being sued they could focus on training student divers properly."

I don't think that has anything to do whether you are safe or not. I think the obligation should be on the instructor to not certify someone who is not capable of doing the skills nessesasary to be a safe diver , not on who should , or should not take the course in the first place
If they are passing people who should not pass, ... then what will another cert. help

I guess I was one of the lucky ones and got an outstanding instructor, even going so far as to get another pool session for all the basic OW classes. My instructor was willing to take the time ness. to make sure everyone was ready for the next skill, and even if that ment another pool session for an individual, on his own time, at no extra charge.
One diving trip a year would probably keep your basic skills up to snuff , but as was mentioned, what about advanced skills?
Recertification sure seams like such a reasonable idea, but how do you impliment it/inforce it
Maybe they should reinforce the need for a refresher dive more

You may be right Scuba, my being here at ScubaBoard might show that I'm skewing the poll
One of the reasons I'm taking the Rescue course on the 10th is because of wanting to be a confident, safe, better diver (and to dive with my instructor again)


DB