riding on mantas and other animals

[Santa]

Now, archman corrected me and proved how much more he knows about fish brains than I do (really remarkable stuff, PM him, he'll tell you all about it). Where I got my theories about mantas was from (sadly enough) the Discovery Channel. I know that you can't believe everything you see on TV, but it's great stuff nonetheless. What they showed was that a film crew on San Benedicto Island tried an experiment to determine how mantas tell people apart. They had the same divers trade gear, and the mantas could still pick out their favorite playmate. But when they put tin foil over their masks (who's bright idea it was to scuba dive blindfolded, we'll probably never know), the mantas appeared to be confused. Logical conclusion: (gasp), could it be, that mantas are actually able to tell people apart by their eyes. Our modern neural science doesn't seem to think so. I personally think that there's more to living things than a well developed hindbrain and an inadequate forebrain (or visa versa with higher mammals). I'm probably being a little overly romantic right there, but, for me it's still a thought worth concidering.

Definitely is - and it's an interesting study. I agree that sometimes it's overly empirical to regard some living nonhuman creatures as pure "machines of instinct" (whatever instinct truly is, anyway).

I love good old discovery too (discoverymuch) but as you point out ever so often there's just no way of telling how scientifical their approach is (or how the production budget and methodology relates to the quality of their often open-ended conclusions).

They have to consider dramatic value - and shows about scientific rogues are more thrilling than shows about geek scientists who, through repeated-boring-experiments-that-are-hard-for-layman-to-relate-to and meticulous datacrunhcing puncture some of our favourite fancies.

Controversial guys like, say, Steve Irving - who are undoubtedly, in real life, very knowledgable, and great environmental advocats and promoters to boot - at times push a really heavy brand of animal romanticism (please don't misinterpret that ,0), adorning them with various human traits and motivations.

I suppose it provides a feeling of wonder and maybe soothes some of our existential feelings of loneliness.

Just to harp a bit, could it be for example that the tinfoil (providing it was shiny) simply scared the mantas or distracted them from their usual m.o of recognition?

... all that aside I'd really like to hear more about the inner workings of fishbrains! (this is a geek forum isn't it ;0)

Regards

 

[archman]

There's an inherent tendency in many open water and clear water predators to visually cue in on eyeballs. They act as "bull's eyes" of sorts. Squid will chase down prey fish and try to chomp them right behind the eyeball. Lots of predator fishes use prey eye position to extrapolate an interception point. There's very good reason as to the evolution of camouflaging eyebars (i.e. chaetodontid butterflyfishes), and confusing eyespots (i.e. red drum). Visual trickery in clear waters is a common survival tactic.

I use a predator fish's "eyeball sensitivity" in some of my lesson plans. Whenever our group encounters barracuda, jacks, or groupers, I'll tell my students to facilitate the fish to closely approach. When they get close enough, one or more of my students will face the fish and directly stare it down. Almost always, the fish response is a dramatic retreat. It's really fun with barracuda, as they're very persistent and will often just circle around out of visual range. You can mess with them for 20-40 minutes.

Fish that have highly evolved tendencies to be cleaned (ocean sunfish, queen triggers, 'cuda, grouper, mantas) also incorporate a great deal of visual differentiation into their behaviors. Ability to locate cleaning stations, and the right kind of cleaner organisms (many are harmful mimics) is quite useful. Mantas like to be cleaned, often persist within local areas, and display fair memory (for a fish). Combining a pleasant experience with a high visual acuity, and it's little wonder that a manta will prefer diver A (that petted them) over diver B (that harassed them). I have a blenny eel in my lab that will only accept food from some of my research students. It doesn't "like" the others. One of my female students once became highly insulted over this.

"The fish doesn't like me!"

I put her in charge of a tank full of crabs.

 

[Mantasscareme]

Wow, facinating stuff! Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Santa]

Yeah this is great stuff. Makes total sense.

Wish we had more threads like this. I shall try my luck staring down cod and flounders until I can afford barracuda.

How do you actually study fish brain activity. I suppose it's not possible to directly monitor the actual neural brain patterns of fish like with a CAT Scan?

Regards

 

[Santa]

"The fish doesn't like me!"

QUOTE]


By the way this kinda reflects to the point I was trying to make. The human desire to be liked by a fish.

Good thing crabs aren't as emotionally taxing.


regards.