Scuba Death at Monterey

[meierdierck]

have they released the autopsy yet?

 

[Chuck Tribolet]

Well, the fatter you are, the more buoyant you are, the more weight you need.

But that doesn't necessarily mean you are overweighted.

Overweighted means you need air in your BC at the end of the
dive to be neutral at some shallow depth (0-15').

 

[Chuck Tribolet]

The jellies swarm every now and then... I can't pin down what months though.... Late summer to fall?

The jellies show up in Monterey when it turns green, and that's
usually June-Sept.

The good news is that the jellies seem to eat the green.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Hmmm... I can see a new invention for such situations... a hood that is cone shaped and has a broad rim to deflect the jellies well away from your face as you ascend through them.

Is their presence a fairly regular thing up there or just very sporadic? That is a serious question.

How about a neoprene version of a coollie hat? Or maybe a neoprene pith helmet?

Statistics...
In trying to draw conclusions from statistics, we need more information - this is a prime example.
If 80% of overall fatalities in the same group (for example, folks 40-70 who are active enough to Scuba dive) are "cardio related" - and I'll bet it's pretty close - then the statistic is, while true, totally meaningless - that is, there isn't any correlation between diving and cardio-related death, it's just the thing that kills most folks who die that don't have any other known fatal condition.
Rick

Rick gets a cookie. I have people on my evaluation team who often make the same mistake of looking at data but inferring meaning to it when none exists. Rick is correct that without referencing the general population, you can't assume any correlation with diving. Even then you have to be careful about directionality and assigning any causality to a particular variable. That becomes particularly true when the N is really small.

For example, if the older folks among you remember Jim Fixx, you will remember that he wrote The Complete Book of Running and was a very accomplished runner who was pretty much at the forefront of introducing normal people to running for fitness.

But you may not recall that he died of a heart attack while running. The inferrence you could draw from this is that running causes cardio vascular disease. It is far more likely however that running had nothing to do with it other than perhaps to extend his life compared to if had he not taken up running 25 years earlier.

 

[fdog]

While nominally I'd agree with you both (having had more than enough statistics classes), IIRC, the data had been normalized to take these things into account.

I was presenting the conclusion - that the majority of diver deaths were not the result of being bent, an embolism, or drowning - but instead, a cardiovascular incident (MI, etc). What can be taken from this is that divers that are overweight, out of shape, and low in "water time" are a greater risk.

As I look around at divers I see at popular locations, the portion of the population that fits this profile used to be the far minority. Now, it's the majority.


All the best, James

 

[Rick Murchison]

When trying to identify trends in Scuba, particularly trends in causes of death, we must remember that we're not dealing with a long established stable population here. Scuba is still young... younger than air racing or mountain climbing... the initial "bulge" in the Scuba population is just now reaching their 70's, and many still dive. The average age of scuba divers has been getting steadily higher also because it's become more "mainstream" and open to other than young (ex)military men.
So, "trends" like an increased percentage of deaths due to heart problems are just natural moves revolving around the demographic more than anything else.
In another 50 years we (those of us who started diving in the first two decades of recreational Scuba) will be gone and there will be a much more stable population - and statistics about things scuba will have a lot more meaning and be reflective of Scuba practices than they are now. Now they're just reflective of the shifting average age of the population, mostly.
Rick

 

[K_girl]

While nominally I'd agree with you both (having had more than enough statistics classes), IIRC, the data had been normalized to take these things into account.

I was presenting the conclusion - that the majority of diver deaths were not the result of being bent, an embolism, or drowning - but instead, a cardiovascular incident (MI, etc). What can be taken from this is that divers that are overweight, out of shape, and low in "water time" are a greater risk.

As I look around at divers I see at popular locations, the portion of the population that fits this profile used to be the far minority. Now, it's the majority.


All the best, James

I would say I see more out of shape divers in warm water locations, but far less of them in the Monterey area. I know one dive shop owner who is in his mid-60's, with a gut on him, but he dives the Monterey area all the time in a dry suit and sometimes conducts training. He was on a boat in Monterey when a couple of years ago, a much younger man, in really excellent shape, who did a night dive the night before, died of a heart attack in the water. Unless you are watching all of these divers prepare for their dives, how would you know how much "water time" they have? I would agree about the profile of divers who suffer cardio events in the water, but aren't you being a little judgemental here as to who you see fits the profile and who doesn't?

I meet a lot of retired people on diving vacations, the reason being, they are most able to afford it. They usually say it was something they've wanted to do all of their lives and now they finally have the time and the money to do it. PADI actively seeks out these kind of customers to train. I decided to have a stress EKG last year to try and determine my own risk. Something that PADI does not require of any divers. Even though I extended the stress time significantly, I sailed through the test with flying colors and nothing appeared to be wrong. But I was told that I still have a 7% of a heart attack as a general statistic even without diving. The stress EKG was not a 100% guarantee.

An investigator who worked in my office was 60-years +, but he looked like he was 40 - and totally buff. He had an A-frame shape with major bicepts. Worked out all the time. He and his wife both drowned in Cancun snorkling in the summer of 2002. He suffered a heart attack before drowning when trying to save his wife who had gotten into trouble. This was the reason I went for Rescue diver certification and have had stress EKG tests every other year.

The point is, you can never know just by looking at people who is at risk and who isn't. I think PADI should at least encourage all divers of all ages to have a stress EKG to get a better understanding of their own heart health. Especially in light of the fact that a heart attack precedes drowning in so many scuba deaths. The stress EKG is not an absolute guarantee, but it can certainly give some measure of peace of mind that may actually help during a stressful situation.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

But that doesn't necessarily mean you are overweighted.

Overweighted means you need air in your BC at the end of the
dive to be neutral at some shallow depth (0-15').

Thank you Chuck, this is exactly the point I've always tried to make. If a diver is weighted properly there shouldn't even be a need to have air in a BC at the end of the dive to hold a stop, and especially to be buoyant once on the surface.

BTW, sorry to hear about the poor guy. I reserve comment and speculation until more facts are in. Condolences to his family and friends.

 

[fdog]

When trying to identify trends in Scuba, particularly trends in causes of death, we must remember that we're not dealing with a long established stable population here. Scuba is still young... younger than air racing or mountain climbing... the initial "bulge" in the Scuba population is just now reaching their 70's, and many still dive. The average age of scuba divers has been getting steadily higher also because it's become more "mainstream" and open to other than young (ex)military men.
So, "trends" like an increased percentage of deaths due to heart problems are just natural moves revolving around the demographic more than anything else.
In another 50 years we (those of us who started diving in the first two decades of recreational Scuba) will be gone and there will be a much more stable population - and statistics about things scuba will have a lot more meaning and be reflective of Scuba practices than they are now. Now they're just reflective of the shifting average age of the population, mostly.
Rick

True. However, whatever the cause, the results are still there as a learning lesson. What I take from it is "get/stay in shape if you want to pursue this sport". Especially for someone that's my age.

I would say I see more out of shape divers in warm water locations, but far less of them in the Monterey area. I know one dive shop owner who is in his mid-60's, with a gut on him, but he dives the Monterey area all the time in a dry suit and sometimes conducts training. He was on a boat in Monterey when a couple of years ago, a much younger man, much better shape, who did a night dive the night before died of a heart attack in the water. Unless you are watching all of these divers prepare for their dives, how would you know how much "water time" they have? I would agree about the profile of divers who suffer cardio events in the water, but aren't you being a little judgemental here as to who you see fits the profile and who doesn't?

Yes, I suppose I'm being a lot judgmental. However, as someone who works a cardiac arrest a couple of times a day at work, I have a good idea of what fits a high-risk profile. And, I'm seeing it more and more in this sport.

And yes, I suppose I am being judgmental regarding a person's "water time" - but I feel I can size up someone in 30 seconds; and I daresay any other experienced diver can, too.


Regardless, I feel for the family of the victim. And given what Chuck has passed on, I will take it for incentive to decline dessert tonight, and tack on some more treadmill time at the gym.


All the best, James

 

[siouxey]

Has anyone heard the results of the autopsy? In talking to the divers in my group and his weight was mentioned, the thought of a pulmonary embolism came into conversation. I would be very intrigued as to the results of the coroner.

I was also in the water when I heard the sirens last weekend. I was diving Breakwater with my master and three dive students. One of the students was doing something and I said, "Don't let that be you" not knowing that the sirens were for a diver. I felt so bad when I heard that it was. My condolences also go to the family.

I dove McAbee yesterday and it was like it was last weekend, lake-like conditions. There was a fair amount of surge at the bottom, however.

Blub blub,
Siouxey