ScubaPro's customer support warranties ("limited lifetime" & parts for life)

[-hh]

The sticky post on the Parts for Life question says:

"SCUBAPRO regulator limited lifetime warranty has NOT BEEN CHANGED OR ALTERED."

[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif]In reading on, it appears that ScubaPro stands behind their products through two different programs:[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif]1. Warranty: this covers any defects, and it comes in three flavors:
a) One Year
b) Two Years
c) "Limited Lifetime"

Under this warranty, if anything is found to be defective, ScubaPro basically replaces it (i.e., makes good at zero cost to the customer).

The phrasing of "Limited Lifetime" does invoke a few questions as to what the limitations are that they're alluding to as potentially being present. There's no additional information on the website to explain, nor can I really find any information of examples of what is intended.

2. 'Parts for Life' program. The essence of this is that the basic contract is that the customer agrees to regularly keep his regulators [/FONT]maintained and in good working order. The Contractor pays for the labor and ScubaPro provides the parts to do these annual services for free.
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There have been some nuances as well as changes over the years to the PFL program - the basics appear to be:

a) A customer can lose eligibility to the free PFL if he doesn't maintain regularly.
b) If (a) happened, there was a reinstatement process; this was discontinued (15 Oct 2011)

c) The free PFL used to apply to all regulators for the original owner; this was also discontinued (1 Jan 2012):
today, it only applies to only those regulators purchased as part of a larger package ("complete set").

What's not clear from the above is what ScubaPro's support policy is when it comes to older regulators where ScubaPro has chosen to discontinue making the parts repair kits. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif]For customers who have kept up their part of the free PFL contract, how does ScubaPro go about supporting a regulator which has become unserviceable only because ScubaPro has chosen to discontinue making those service parts?
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It sounds like this should be a case where ScubaPro's "Limited Lifetime" warranty should replace that customer's regulator at no charge, because the regulator has become "No Good" through no fault of the customer and entirely because of a decision purposefully made by ScubaPro to not support it.

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-hh [/FONT]

 

[RJP]

Years ago I saw a sign outside the Continental Airline's President's Club at Newark airport touting "Ask about our special Lifetime Membership offer - available for a limited time only!"

Those bastards... depriving their customers of immortality!

 

[tbone1004]

what regulators were covered by the free PFL program and are no longer being manufactured? I don't keep track of Scubapro so legitimate question. The "Limited Lifetime" as far as warranty usually just means it is nontransferable and that the product wasn't deemed to be used outside of its limits. I.e. if an unsealed piston freezes and it causes damage to the regulator they likely won't cover it, if you use a regulator not rated for use with O2 and something happens to it, they likely won't cover it *burn marks or whatever on the inside of the reg*, that is usually the "limited" meaning for most policies in this industry.

PFL is just a way to get more money in the dive shops pockets btw, you are paying for those kits one way or another and it is usually factored into the up front cost of the regulator *i.e. parts kits actually cost say $8, requires service every year, average time the diver will use that stage is 10 years, so the regulator will be $80 more expensive that it would have been without PFL. Most regulators can go in for a tune up once a year to do a full leak and IP check and get sent right back out not requiring a full service, takes 5 minutes for a full set, but that isn't profitable, not to say it's a bad business model, it's just something you should be aware of and this applies to all brands offering PFL.

 

[NC Air Hog]

Yes.... everyone knows that those dastardly dive shop people just want to take all of your money. I would explain more, but the servants I have are almost done filling my four private jets so that I can finally take my weekly jaunt to Fiji.

 

[-hh]

what regulators were covered by the free PFL program and are no longer being manufactured? I don't keep track of Scubapro so legitimate question.

There's lots of SP regs which have been discontinued - - the PFL supportability question comes into play when ScubaPro choose to also discontinue the parts kits.

To that end, I was told by my LDS that they've been running into problems getting SP parts kits for the Mk200 and Mk15 first stages and for the G200B second stage.

If memory serves, I believe that the guts of the G200B is the same as the G250, so if its true that the G200B is affected, then the G250 might also be affected as well.

What this really boils down to is a two-part question, I think:

A) Is my LDS BS'ing me (regarding parts kits nonavailability), in the hope that they can make it a big enough hassle that I'll buy a replacement reg from them?

B) If the LDS is telling the truth and SP has chosen to discontinue making the parts kits, the implications are that they're abandoning customers who have faithfully kept up their half of the PFL contract agreement. Because we all know that this ultimately would have been a business decision (not a technology limitation/etc) made deliberatively by SP to discontinue the parts kits, then what is their official policy for how they will effectively honor their promise to support these customers for "life"?

For example, SP's policy could be to trade-in the old regulator for a new one, and transfer the customer's existing PFL warranty transfer to the new replacement without requiring the additional purchase of a BC & computer...or the other extreme is that they could be foolish enough to just tell their faithful customer to go jump in a lake.

Either way, its SP's responsibility to clearly and unambiguously state what their policy officially is, because this can't be a hypothetical discussion forever - - unless SP's policy is that they're going to make replacement parts kits for all regulators for as long as the company continues to exist...and if this is the case, then that's what they need to clearly and unambiguously state.


EDIT: maybe a simpler question for SP is: are Mk15 parts kits still available (Yes or No)? Ditto for the Mk200 (Y/N). Ditto G200B (Y/N).

The "Limited Lifetime" as far as warranty usually just means it is nontransferable and that the product wasn't deemed to be used outside of its limits. I.e. if an unsealed piston freezes and it causes damage to the regulator they likely won't cover it, if you use a regulator not rated for use with O2 and something happens to it, they likely won't cover it *burn marks or whatever on the inside of the reg*, that is usually the "limited" meaning for most policies in this industry.

A reasonable enough interpretation; just wish that their website actually said that rather than a vague "Call Us".

PFL is just a way to get more money in the dive shops pockets btw, you are paying for those kits one way or another and it is usually factored into the up front cost of the regulator *i.e. parts kits actually cost say $8, requires service every year, average time the diver will use that stage is 10 years, so the regulator will be $80 more expensive that it would have been without PFL. Most regulators can go in for a tune up once a year to do a full leak and IP check and get sent right back out not requiring a full service, takes 5 minutes for a full set, but that isn't profitable, not to say it's a bad business model, it's just something you should be aware of and this applies to all brands offering PFL.

Oh, I readily understand that the PFL is part of a larger business plan which here is configured to motivate the customer to show up at his LDS at least annually (and conditioned to open his wallet). It has also traditionally been a product differentiator for SP, although with their last change in the PFL program, they've sabotaged themselves in this regards.


-hh

 

[RJP]

Yes.... everyone knows that those dastardly dive shop people just want to take all of your money. I would explain more, but the servants I have are almost done filling my four private jets so that I can finally take my weekly jaunt to Fiji.

[video=youtube;fKBRtdp2e98]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKBRtdp2e98[/video]

 

[tbone1004]

Sorry meant parts not actual regulators, but same still applies.

Josh, this has nothing to do with shops being good or bad, this is on the manufacturers and really don't want to get into this on here. It's not anything that is "good or bad" or some shops are greedy pigs and others aren't, though the exception is the shops that don't honor PFL unless you bought from them and there's quite a few of those. The program was started either officially or unofficially for at least three reasons

1. make sure divers keep their equipment checked up regularly so it is safe, sitting equipment is bad, though you know as well as anyone most regs with proper care are far "over serviced"

2. prevent people from trying to find blackmarket parts kits and service their own regulators, note the brands that offer PFL nicely coincide with the ones that ban resale of parts to unauthorized techs, and this is the important part, that are not currently affiliated with an authorized dive shop. This is what really pisses people off, I'm a certified Apeks and Poseidon tech, I can't buy parts for either of them because I'm not a shop, how stupid is that?

3. help shops with revenue by tying the lifetime warranty into the PFL program, so if the diver wants to keep his lifetime warranty, he then has to take the regulators back to the shops for service which keeps revenue flowing to the dive shop. You do pay for the parts in the initial purchase price of the regulator, it's not "free" in the purest sense of the word, but it is clever marketing to make people think it is, and also as a warranty stipulation. This is about the opposite of regulators like Hog where you were paying a real cheap price for the unit up front, but parts kits were almost 2x what the kits from Scubapro/Aqualung were, the shops and mfg make their money through parts kits instead of upfront cost, Scubapro and Aqualung have chosen to make their money in up front purchase price.

None of these things have anything to do with the dive shops themselves, just the manufacturers, that's the way they've chosen to do it, and that's the way the big boys will continue to operate for the foreseeable future, this was not a jab at the shops. Again, nothing against SP, Aqualung etc, that is the business model they have chosen to work with and that is their choice, it doesn't make it any better or any worse than others, it is what it is. They have to gamble that most people won't keep the PFL up for any significant length of time before upgrading, many people purchasing those products are lured in by the "you get what you pay for", and there's nothing wrong with that, just a difference of opinion. I don't agree with it nor to many people that have similar diving styles, but as long as the recreational community is the vast majority of equipment sales, this model works really darn well.

 

[underH2Oman]

EDIT: maybe a simpler question for SP is: are Mk15 parts kits still available (Yes or No)? Ditto for the Mk200 (Y/N). Ditto G200B (Y/N).


-hh

I know that the parts kits are still available.
Mk15 YES
G200 YES
G200B YES

One thing to note is that the parts kits are designed to replace the standard parts that wear (seats,o-rings etc) If the regulator was in need of a part other than the standard parts they may be available or may not?

 

[-hh]

Sorry meant parts not actual regulators, but same still applies.

Josh, this has nothing to do with shops being good or bad, this is on the manufacturers and really don't want to get into this on here.

Which is unfortunate, because Social Media has given them the opportunity to hear, identify and resolve customer concerns at a much lower level.

It's not anything that is "good or bad" or some shops are greedy pigs and others aren't, though the exception is the shops that don't honor PFL unless you bought from them and there's quite a few of those...

Oh, wonderful: when I retire in a few years and move to another region, that just becomes one more potential headache in finding a good new dive shop for the next 20 years.

None of these things have anything to do with the dive shops themselves, just the manufacturers, that's the way they've chosen to do it...

Agreed. My point is that once companies are no longer tiny, they have legal council who have already worked over these sorts of "What If's?" and all I'm doing basically is asking what their rules of engagement are (and of course if I consider them to be grossly unreasonable, on if I want to dispute them with my own lawyer).

I know that the parts kits are still available.
Mk15 YES
G200 YES
G200B YES

A minor point of clarification, please, regarding your second line: I had asked about the Mk200 first stage (unbalanced piston design) and I do recall that SP did sell a G200 second stage, so which one are you referring to?

One thing to note is that the parts kits are designed to replace the standard parts that wear (seats,o-rings etc) If the regulator was in need of a part other than the standard parts they may be available or may not?

Good point ... I seem to recall someone telling me at some point that the pistons for the Mk15 first stage were either low inventory or no longer available, for example.



-hh

 

[underH2Oman]

Sorry my bad had the G200 on the brain.

Mk200 YES

A minor point of clarification, please, regarding your second line: I had asked about the Mk200 first stage (unbalanced piston design) and I do recall that SP did sell a G200 second stage, so which one are you referring to?

-hh