Sharing air to extend bottom time

[DevonDiver]

2) sharing air early to keep a diver from arriving at the turn pressure earlier than others.

My only concern with this, as mentioned, is that it seems to be a lazy alternative to proper gas management - gas consumption planning and the selection of appropriate gas supply.

It's quite common for two divers to have markedly different SAC rates. Safe diving practices indicate that the dive is ended when the first person reaches a minimum gas threshold. That causes one, or more, divers to suffer from abbreviated dives - which sucks for them. That is resolved by planning and equipment - which is nice.

Instead of taking short-cuts... make the effort to plan and conduct dives properly... and that means appropriate gas volume supply.

Where divers don't have a choice in gas supply - i.e. when renting cylinders on vacation - start to lobby dive centers to more effectively support their customers needs.

Dive centers should support safe diving through the provision of multiple cylinder capacities.... one size DOES NOT fit all. If unwilling to show the commitment to do that, they should only offer dives that they are sure a customer can complete on the cylinder they supply - the AL80. Once a dive center starts running shorter, shallower 'standard' dive trips, in line with the cylinders they opt to supply - they'll see a decline in customer interest. They'll soon change their ways and increase their stock of varied cylinder sizes.

Supply versus Demand. As consumers, we should demand what we need - not accept sloppy dive practices just for the convenience and profitability of the dive center.

This whole thread seems to me that divers are willing to jump through hoops, rather than accept that a square peg won't fit in a round hole.

 

[Peter Guy]

SeaCobra wrote

Air sharing in itself is not a bad thing, however the practice of sharing air to extend someone else's bottom time is an unsafe practice

.
To which I reply, BullSh#t. Why is it an "unsafe practice" (now it's unsafe instead of "bad")? Pray tell, IF I decide to "borrow a cup of air" from my buddy (I have a friend who even has her own hand signal for this) and we have the training and skill to do it, what makes it "unsafe?" As I have written before, I routinely "borrow a cup of air" from my buddy when we are diving in the tropics IF we are both on AL 80s. Typically I'll get to 1500 psi when she is about 2100 -- so I breathe off her primary until she's at around 1400 psi and then I go back on my primary. What is "unsafe" about that?

Yes we have trained to be able to do this and YES we dive a lot. We are NOT "vacation" divers but, to the contrary, average over 150 "real" dives a year in many varied conditions. So what that most people can't do this (although there isn't any reason why they shouldn't be able to do this). Hell, most people can't swim OUT of a cave from 1000 feet back either (unfortunately most people could swim INTO a cave that far!). Sea Cobra, does the fact that we are both Full Cave and cave dive, but that most people aren't, mean we shouldn't write about our experiences doing that? And if it is OK to write about some of the technical diving we do, why not admit, and tell people it is OK to get the skills to do this, that "borrowing a cup of air" is something EVERYONE should be ready, willing and able to do.

Sea Cobra -- in your sig line it says:

Jeff Heim NAUI #10880 Course Director NAUI Tec Ops

so yes you are "described as a NAUI Course Director" and I imagine you wear it proudly, AS YOU SHOULD! OTOH, you really shouldn't make such hard and fast statements as you have here!

Andy (DD), I don't disagree with your post at all. MOST "vacation divers" couldn't spend 10 minutes on a 7 foot hose comfortably and until they can, they shouldn't. OTOH, as you might suspect, Lynne and I are quite comfortable doing this (and we damn well better be!) so why not?

SeaC and DD (and the rest of the nay sayers) -- I guess it really comes down to, IF a buddy pair can safely and routinely "share air" why shouldn't they?

 

[Centrals]

I would have no problem to donate my long hose to anyone who need it. Good practice afterall.
But I would hesitate to do it on every dive to the same person. Because I am losing precious dive time as well as having someone near by all the time.

 

[DevonDiver]

I think there are two issues;

1. Whether you have to donate air - i.e. what will happen to receiver, if you did not?

2. When having to donate air, what your actions are - is that the end of the dive, or not?


Peter, I'm not sure if we're talking at cross-purposes - because what I read in your posts seems very inconsistent to the mindset I'd expect to find in a 'DIR Practitioner'. If you are talking about 'practice and rehearsal between two capable buddies', then I can see consistency. If you are talking about 'balancing turn-points between two divers of dissimilar air-consumption' then I see a very illogical viewpoint from someone who has formally embraced a methodology that stresses 'best practice' for the sake of utmost safety.

I also see a disconnect between what we can do and what we should do - as safety conscious divers, dive pros, role-models etc.

There's a lot of experience contributing to this thread - and I'm sure that, between us, we can do an awful lot of stuff underwater. Much of that 'stuff' might be at odds with safe diving recommendations. I call that short-cutting. Some might call that convenience. Others may call it unsafe or 'bad'. What we can do is dictated by our skill and experience - but often swayed by ego and complacency. What we should do is never subject to such distractions.

I would have no problem to donate my long hose to anyone who need it. Good practice afterall.

If they need it, then it's not practice.... is it?

 

[Centrals]

If they need it, then it's not practice.... is it?

It is still a "practice" for me. "Doing an activity or training regularly so that you can improve your skill".
Every dive is a practice dive for me.

 

[SeaCobra]

SeaCobra wrote .
To which I reply, BullSh#t. Why is it an "unsafe practice" (now it's unsafe instead of "bad")? Pray tell, IF I decide to "borrow a cup of air" from my buddy (I have a friend who even has her own hand signal for this) and we have the training and skill to do it, what makes it "unsafe?" As I have written before, I routinely "borrow a cup of air" from my buddy when we are diving in the tropics IF we are both on AL 80s. Typically I'll get to 1500 psi when she is about 2100 -- so I breathe off her primary until she's at around 1400 psi and then I go back on my primary. What is "unsafe" about that?

Yes we have trained to be able to do this and YES we dive a lot. We are NOT "vacation" divers but, to the contrary, average over 150 "real" dives a year in many varied conditions. So what that most people can't do this (although there isn't any reason why they shouldn't be able to do this). Hell, most people can't swim OUT of a cave from 1000 feet back either (unfortunately most people could swim INTO a cave that far!). Sea Cobra, does the fact that we are both Full Cave and cave dive, but that most people aren't, mean we shouldn't write about our experiences doing that? And if it is OK to write about some of the technical diving we do, why not admit, and tell people it is OK to get the skills to do this, that "borrowing a cup of air" is something EVERYONE should be ready, willing and able to do.

Sea Cobra -- in your sig line it says: so yes you are "described as a NAUI Course Director" and I imagine you wear it proudly, AS YOU SHOULD! OTOH, you really shouldn't make such hard and fast statements as you have here!

Andy (DD), I don't disagree with your post at all. MOST "vacation divers" couldn't spend 10 minutes on a 7 foot hose comfortably and until they can, they shouldn't. OTOH, as you might suspect, Lynne and I are quite comfortable doing this (and we damn well better be!) so why not?

SeaC and DD (and the rest of the nay sayers) -- I guess it really comes down to, IF a buddy pair can safely and routinely "share air" why shouldn't they?

And if I were to condone this practice I would fully expect to lose my Course Director rating with NAUI (and just to clarify I am not full cave certified, only intro. not a lot of cave in pennsylvania and I prefer the wrecks off joisey).

DD has been hitting the nail on the head and while a few of you may be quite comfy with this, it also sets a very bad example to the other not-so-skilled set that casually glance over. Just like tec diving folks see the sexy part and want to be that diver, but they do not always see the years of practice, dedication and preparation that went into the dive.

Just for the record, I fall into that "big guy" category; 5'10" and 260 lbs. My wife is a little on the slender side, but guess who gets to the low air first? She does, and we turn the dive, do our safe ascent and get on the boat. I do not feel my dive is cut short, but rather I had a wonderful dive with my gal.

Efficiency, comfort, streamlining and skill in the water will go very far in improving your air consumption. I would suggest that we promote those things instead of this short cut.

 

[DevonDiver]

It is still a "practice" for me. "Doing an activity or training regularly so that you can improve your skill".
Every dive is a practice dive for me.

Of course - practice is practice. However, recognizing and responding to an emergency ceases all practice - it's a matter of focus and priority.

Heaven forbid, that someone dies when you're casually going through the motions of a 'practice dive', assuming that everything will be fine. As you well know and should have learned.

A low-on-air diver is one of those priority instances. It's not a time to dilly-dally or experiment. It's one step on an accident chain... and you need to break that chain.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

WOW! This is getting crazy.

Getting the boot from NAUI for supporting such a practice (by consenting adults)!!

When I think back of all the "stupid human tricks" I've done underwater, sharing air to extend a dive for a few minutes is WAY down on the list.

 

[DevonDiver]

I wouldn't expect any agency to support air-sharing as a gas management principle. I don't see what's so 'crazy' about that. There's simply no need to do it, save for laziness.

 

[ktomlinson]

I do now get that it is a bad idea for a DM, because of slowed response time and because it reduces their awareness, but I still don't see the problem with buddies agreeing to it. Who would anyone wait until they were almost empty to do this? When I have done it, I have always done it with enough gas to get back to the boat in my own tank....thats the difference between actually needing the air and extending a dive. The last time I did it was because of a short fill...if I had a way to transfer air from my buddies tank to mine before the dive to balance them out I would have done it, so what's the difference?