Should I report this and to whom?

[learn-scuba]

Diver0001 once bubbled...


This is on a bit of a tangent but personally I think it's bad practice to push or pull divers down on a descent, *especially* during training. I would submit that if a student is unable to descend then they need assistance in understanding why that's happening so they can solve the problem structurally. After all, isn't the goal of the training to teach them how to dive? Isn't controlling ones descent without assistance part of that?

R..

Diver0001 hits the nail on the head imvho

I can't speak for any other agency, but I know it's a hard fast rule that instructors (actually any dive leaders) are never to pull anyone down for any reason in mine. It's even taught to the students that you never "help" a diver by pulling them down. The list of reasons why you should never do that is long indeed.

Pulling astudent down to "fix" the problem is NOT fixing the problem... it's a lazy shortcut to an immediate but otherwise meaningless solution. If a student can't get down there's a reason... underweighting, hyperventilation, failure to properly vent the BCD or some other reason. The correct response is to determine the source of the problem and address that... not just haul them to the bottom. If I ever saw one of my DM's do that to one of my students it would be the last time that DM saw one of my classes, that I can guarantee.

imho -- regardless of anything else that may or may not have transpired, the simple act of pulling a student down was worthy of a complaint with or without a subsequent injury as a result.

 

[jroy017]

After all the posts that were said about pulling a student down, I feel I have to respond. Yes I agree pulling the student down is a no no. And isn't the way to train somebody and doesn't teach him anything. Have I ever done it to solve a problem before creating another one.Yes is it something I've done but not often( probably once a season in special circumstances). My post was more in the sense that allthough this a not a standard method (even an incorrect one) it does happen to prevent problems (in my case student was so preoccupied with gettin down forgot about what was above(dock with airplane )that she was going to hit her head on them. Add the fact that the student was finning to get own with arms trying to push herself underwater and nearyly tearing the mouthpiece out of her buddies mouth. My idea was pull her down signal to swim away and then resurface explain the problem and retry. We are not talking about the 6 m wich was referred to by Crabbi.

Howber i will admit that the training i got from my instructor who is a course director did not involve as vehement objections to puling a student down as was seen on this board. Was reffered to as never unless you dont see another solution. All in all everything went fine.

Before you start saying again that any person who would do that would be fired, isn't this board a palce to talk about past experiences share them and learn from them seems that I went to a school with a different thought on this subject.

Critism is only good when contructive or else just a waste of time => or else doesn't help anything.

 

[Washy]

crabbi once bubbled...


My question is this: Should the Instructor be held responsible in any way for this occurence and should I therefore report him (and to whom?)?

SH*T YEAH - SLAM DUNK THE NEGLIGENT ARSE

 

[learn-scuba]

jroy017 once bubbled...
<snip>Before you start saying again that any person who would do that would be fired, isn't this board a palce to talk about past experiences share them and learn from them seems that I went to a school with a different thought on this subject. <snip>

Mind you I didn't mean they would be fired... I just would refuse to use them in any of my classes. And absolutely this is a place for discussion. I certainly did not mean to imply I had the last word by any means. However, I confess I do feel that strongly about it.

The thought that comes to my mind is, using your example of the dock incident, that it would not be necessary to "pull them down" when you could simply arrest their ascent. That's a thing dive leaders frequently have to do(arrest ascent). But, there's a huge difference between slowing or arresting ascent and pulling someone deeper.

If you think the gas laws and decompression rules through, you should see that slowing or arresting ascent is done to prevent injury while purposely pulling someone who may not be prepared (or is already suffering a problem with a squeeze) deeper could in and of itself cause significant injury.

The only situation I can possibly think of where pulling someone down would be the lesser of two evils would be to avoid a boat prop and then only far enough to safely prevent the diver from being hit by the boat and no further. Otherwise, I just can't think of a reason why you would HAVE to pull someone down... much less a reason justifying the potential risk of injury that can represent.

That said... I'm all ears for contrary opinions. I learn something new every day and that's what makes living fun.

 

[The Chairman]

on whether it is a "nudge" or a "pull". For those few of my students who are within a nudge of descending (top of the head is right at the surface) I will extend my hand to them and when THEY accept, I gently pull them a foot or so, so that Boyles law takes effect.

TOO MANY TIMES have I seen overweighted students plummeting to the depths because the instructor has not spent enough time to weight them properly. If you are perfectly weighted, it takes that final bob to start the descent. Any nervousness on their part requires just a nudge to start them down.

That being said, even though I live in the sunshine state, I make my students wear the same protection in the pool that they will be wearing in the springs. That way I can nail their weighting in the pool where they are COMPLETELY comfortable. This allows me to spend more time on skills on their first OW dives (Alexander Springs) and easier to figure what they will need when they hit the salt water. I teach everything that needs to be taught, but my students come away with good buoyancy control and a hatred of danglies.

 

[jroy017]

For those few of my students who are within a nudge of descending (top of the head is right at the surface) I will extend my hand to them and when THEY accept, I gently pull them a foot or so, so that Boyles law takes effect.

When I read Crabbi's first post I thought this was the case( evidently not). But i have seen and agree with Net Doc that some students need that extra nudge sometimes( ok lets use the word nudge instead of pull but seems the ame thing to me). Diiference for us is when we are doing a Cert we usally spend 15 min for each student for weighting (seeing as they are wearing a full 7mm wet and in the pool a bathing suit or a shorty) but then nervousness gets in and the student doesn't exhale completly evenethough he's saying he is . Results he's positive and unfortuntely some students are more nervous at the surface than underwater(the fact that they cant see whats under them). All they need is a nudge(of course not a a pull to the bottom).

Learn-Scuba
I guess we are getting at the same point when you arrest a students ascent its pratically impossible to actually just stop him lest say at 12 feet and not actually pull him or her down to 14 or 15 feet. Actually in my opinion when you arrest a student's ascent you get negative swim up to the student grab him when you have both stopped ascending make sure he is neutral than neutralize yourself. During that whole period you probably pulled him down(which is what i meanby pulle him down sorry didn't know the correct terms in English"arresting ascent" I'm Franch Canadian)

Ok not to divert the reason of this thread yeah the instructor who pulled crabi a whole 6m to the bottom was negligent and as to when to pull or nudge a student to help him or her I guess is a case by case scenario with the understading that you should notify the student ad be very very carefull.

 

[learn-scuba]

I should probably clarify in that I wouldn't consider your "nudge" of a foot or two to be "pulling" someone down... esp. when you're extending a hand to them and allowing them to use you as an anchor to pull themselves down. This would be particularly true when they are actually at the surface as Boyles law would dictate that (a) they are not going to be suffering any sort of squeeze at that time and (b) the change between 0fsw depth and 2fsw depth makes almost no meaningful difference in terms of ambient pressure.

When I talk about "pulling" a student down... I'm talking about 5', 10' or more as in the case of this thread. However, I would go further to say that pulling a student who has stopped at 10' or 15' down another couple of feet would not be acceptable. If they're already below the surface and have stopped then there would have to be a reason and I would not feel safe assuming it was "okay" to "help" them get down further.

observation: Sometimes thse threads get too d**ned literal. The rub is in the definition of "pulled down"

 

[jroy017]

observation: Sometimes thse threads get too d**ned literal. The rub is in the definition of "pulled down"

Amen to that

 

[The Chairman]

I just didn't want my 1-2 ft nudge to be confused with a 6 meter pull (which is almost 20 feet).

We really seem to be in agreement even if the words are getting in the way.

 

[crabbi]

I went to my doctor this evening and saw a locum (my doc is a way on holiday). By coincidence, the doctor was an experienced diver...!! This was excellent and helped me a lot.

She confirmed that my vertigo etc was caused by barotrauma and that the eardrum was intact.

She has given me some medication to help with the vertigo and has concurred with the majority of posters taht I should inform PADI.

Bearing in mind some of the comments regarding the federated nature of PADI, I will report it in the first instance to the PADI UK HQ.

I will keep progress posted to this thread.

In the meantime, thank you all so much for your responses and support. I am learning a heck of a lot by following these discussions and am reassured that even amongst very experienced people there are a number of right answers (although they all appear to have a common spirit).

Thanks again

Crabbi