Should SCUBA divers / the Diving industry be answerable for their actions legally?

[tom93r1]

Here in Arizona we have whats called "the stupid motorist law". This basically states that if you drive into a flodded wash and get stuck requiring rescue, you will pay for the rescue. Sure enough every time it rains you will see at least one idiot being rescued from a wash on the local evening news.

Its great because there is nothing to interpret to determine if you are responsible to pay or not. I would love to charge the dummies for their idiot moves, but I dont think there is any way to really separate these out fairly when it comes to SCUBA. It just isn't so obvious in this case.

 

[Bonairetrip]

My view: The guy is an idiot. And he has been an idiot twice (that we know of...). When the potential penalty is already "lost at sea" and perhaps death, how would a law influence his decision making? (Short Answer: It wouldn't!)

A buddy would not improve his odds by 50% -- that is flawed math. It would still depend on the decisions made by the diver, the buddy and the boat. The 50% only makes sense if you think: a) with a SMB they would have been seen by their boat for sure; b) they would have deployed and used the device properly; c) they would have stayed together; and d) that 1 in 2 divers carries a SMB in that situation.

While I think he deserves to pay for his rescue (and a charitable contribution from him would very much be in order), it is generally unwise to start charging individuals for their rescue. Why?

First, it causes people to delay calling for a rescue. That typically reduces the likelihood of a positive outcome, makes the search more difficult/costly and often increases the risk to rescuers. Second, what is the line between a "free" rescue and a rescue that you will be billed for? What are the rules? Who decides if you met them? (In the US, it would probably be the USCG. And they are not the best arbiters of diving standards).

For these sorts of reasons, some costs are best socialized - fire response, police response and rescue. We might agree on others as well...

 

[RadRob]

Yeah, what we need is another law that is useless. Laws do not stop people from doing stupid things. If they did, there would be no crime. it is illegal to carry snips in your pocket here in texas. a long time ago they were used to cut fences and steal cattle so there was a law made and it is still on the books. A recently passed anticrime law requires criminals to give their victims 24 hours notice, either orally or in writing, and to explain the nature of the crime to be committed. also, no spitting on the sidewalk. another, it is illegal to sell one's eye. and my favorite - it is illegal to take more than 3 sips of beer while standing (luckily I am still a free man). it is illegal to shoot buffalo from the second story of a hotel. and finally, it is definitely illegal to milk someone else's cow.

there are many laws already that don't mean squat. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. That's what we need. a gun laying on a table or in a locked case does not shoot someone. when someone picks it up and pulls the trigger, someone gets shot. Suing smith and wesson is ignorant - the person holding the gun is who should pay. yes, guns are dangerous, but what is there in this world that cannot cause harm? Sue God for making water.

in rescue situations, we are already paying for this through taxes and bills for $1500.00 ambulance rides that are 2 miles long. This particular idiot should have a bill sent to him with itemized costs for manpower, fuel (especially fuel here in the states), apparatus wear and tear, etc... No more laws, just hit them where it hurts... the wallet.

 

[deep.dude]

I really don't want to see the government get involved in thje diving industry but someone really needs to figure out a way to deal with idiots who constantly repeat thier mistakes. One particular example that I know of is a local who owns a small private boat. He takes divers out in conditions I would consider to be questionable. I saw him take his small craft out in eight foot seas on a day where none of the commecial dive boats will willing to go out. It is rumored that he lets people who are inexperience take the helm while he himself goes in the water and as result of that and his stupidity, the coast guard has been called in to search for him or one of his divers on a regular basis. I know this to be fact because I have been on one or another diver boat on at least eight occasions when the call went out over the marine radio that there was a lost diver. The last time that I know of for a fact was the diver who went missing in Jupiter Florida and to the best of my knowledge was never found. Once is a mistake. Twice is stupidity. But in my opinion more than eight time is gross negligence. It was big on the news when it occured but the news neglected to state that the incident was from a private boat rather than one of numerous commercial dive boats that operate locally.

 

[redrover]

I think it is a bit more complex than that.

Being involved with rescue for 20 years I saw some varied methods regarding funding etc. My experience is certainly limited being just the guy out helping and in limited locations.
I did this as a volunteer for the most part, did have some compensation financially, or could be deemed as such. For example on a FEMA mission all expenses paid as well as an hourly wage higher than my employment, and the same as say a cardiac surgeon would recieve as a team member. FEMA training outside of my home state; equipment, transportation, meals and lodging provided.
As volunteer K-9 SAR (outside of FEMA missions) we were required to provide all our equipment, supplies etc, associated costs such as medical care resulting from, transportation and with CAP transportation commit to three days minimum (or lost wages for me) and grateful for any contributions. A member had the additional role of seeking grants and private funding. These were used or directed for equipment such as beepers and radios. Basically it was a labor of love although when in the most grueling situations I wondered at my sanity.

It was interesting to see the differences between Law Enforcement (who most commonly requested us) counties, cities and states resources.
The Army showing up with a full Blackhawk, depositing the solders on the ground while the Helo transported us in out and around all day. What appeared to be every Tom Dick and Harry and thier large horse trailers from miles around eager to volunteer assistance…Gee my Suburban won’t make it in there, I’ll call Jim Bob and get his Hummer for you. Seeing what seemed a lot of officers, finding out it was every one in the county on and off duty except for Paul whose wife was due any minute. A county I would have thought rather rich by population (supported by taxes) or paid personnel and services with one officer or the sheriff driving his personal vehicle, it was all up to us.
One county each team had their own deputy charged with providing whatever we needed. I expressed my surprise at what seemed to me outlandishly expensive resources for such a Podunk county having pretty much one small town far off the road to anywhere. Well, turns out that county stretch of I15 was quite popular with the drug smugglers. You think we bought all these autos, trailers, boats, motor homes and state of the art communications and electronics? Did you see that brand new Cessna? Guy ran out of gas.

As for charging for a rescue, I would agree in principal but don’t see how to draw lines with any fairness, or humane ways.
Example. One of my searches was 3 generations out hunting. Dad was the idiot and the one that died. Lot of resources put to the rescue. Who is going to pay for that; the surviving wife now without its sole source of support?

Plus, I’m loathe to invite in the scuba police.

 

[Wayan]

Well nothing is for Free, Getting governments to regulate the dive industry can be a mistake and make it almost impossible for the operators and maybe even individuals.

How what should happen is if a rescue is conducted and it is found out in the ensuing investigation that the individual / operator ....failed to observe the dive industries safety standards/protocols and procedures then the party/parties responsible for causing the accident need to pay for their mistake. Better yet make it law that in any advent where the people sell their story all proceeds to go back to the Search and rescue organisation to assist in paying for the cost. Some of these incidents run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars and could quite possibly divert needed resources away from an legitimate incident

 

[DiveDiva_Rach]

Better yet make it law that in any advent where the people sell their story all proceeds to go back to the Search and rescue organisation to assist in paying for the cost.

Now that is a brilliant idea!!!

 

[InTheDrink]

Better yet make it law that in any advent where the people sell their story all proceeds to go back to the Search and rescue organisation to assist in paying for the cost. Some of these incidents run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars and could quite possibly divert needed resources away from an legitimate incident

Excellent, I knew all this board was waiting for was a genius legislator. I look forward to your detailed plans for how we can recover money paid to people for their stories, particularly ones covered by insurance and the stories that happen in different countries to the papers. Should be a cinch. I reckon immediately after we've tackled that we should move on to the Palestinian question and if we've still time before tea, global warming and nuclear disarmament. Just joshing but you get my gist....