Specialties required? Dive club dilemma

[doctormike]

Now I sue you and use your own silly policy against you as proof you had a duty in the first place.

Exactly.

My father used to say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"...!

 

[GrandpaScuba]

No specialty certification should be required for most dives. If the dive involves an activity that is a bit complicated, you could ask the participants to affirm that they have experience in that activity. If a dive involves a truly advanced skill, like very deep diving, heavy currents, etc. it is reasonable to ask that only Advanced OW divers participate. Our dive club occasionally advertises activities "for advanced divers only." But we try to keep those kinds of things at a minimum, as it makes the newbies feel like they can't participate. On the other hand, there needs to be a certain number of advanced activities to keep the long time members interested, too.

 

[grantwiscour]

Too stringent policies (read ridiculus) would keep me out of a/the club. Sounds too close to an HOA for me.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

It sounds like the shop is not sponsoring you but trying to run you. Shop run clubs sucked in the cases where I have been personally involved as an individual member with them. A shop sponsered club keeps it's nose out of the clubs rules and business and simply offers gear discounts to members, maybe a place to meet, and a way to attract new members by referring students. The liability thing sounds like total bull crap. They have no liability on a club activity. You make all new members sign a waiver that they dive at their own risk. Will it keep you from getting sued if someone gets hurt on club dive? No, only a reform of the legal system will do that along with more awareness of each divers personal responsibility. I was in a club that a shop started and they were fine with taking my dues. Then I offered discounts on classes to club members. They stopped sending me the newsletter, took me off the email list, and never refunded my money. I would never join a club where a sponsoring shop set any of the rules for that club or had a say in them.

Jeez, lighten up, Jim. No need to rant against your universe when that in which others of us live is not nearly so bad as you perceive!! You don't have to join a club, you don't have to affiliate with a shop, and you are free to openly compete against them. That's ok with me, but not all shop clubs suck, not all shop affiliated clubs are rip offs. That said, I do not think a club needs to require specialty certifications unless the nature of the dive does, such as cave diving ice diving, or wreck penetration. Certainly no need for a dry suit certification. I do not have one, but do dive dry on occasion, though not often. I do just fine, thank you. I also think Jim is too quick to assert an absence of liability by the shop on club outings. Shops may or may not have liability based upon their rental or sale of equipment, not just training. The claim may or may not be "bull crap.," but being so categorically dismissive of a liability issues is clearly bull crap. Jim, you offer many good insights here on SB, and your credentials are excellent. It is you attitude and parochialism I find less than engaging.
DivemasterDennis

 

[84CJ7]

To follow up my previous post, I see no reason in the internet age for an old fashioned "club" with a list of members to exist anyways, especially the sort with dues.
You could just have a regular thread in the appropriate regional forum here that states "we are diving here on day X at time Y, show up if you want to and dive your own plan" that way its legally every buddy team for themselves (or solo if you prefer) and nobody pays dues, is responsible or is "planning" or "leading" anything.
Honestly what do some of you people pay dues for anyways? If you want a non dive meeting in person have a potluck cookout at a park or meet in a restaurant (also forum thread organized).
Dive shops are for training, insured and licensed captains are for boat diving, anything else should be an unofficial social gathering.
The only reason I could possibly see to having a club with dues would be a group owned compressor, but then you need to have the same insurance as a shop and your only requirement for fills is a C-card just like the shops. Personally I would let the shop deal with the hassle and great expense of maintaining and operating the compressors, fills are cheaper than even the gasoline to get to the dive site by a wide margin.

 

[HIGHwing]

We formed a facebook group. There are no dues, there are no forms, there is no leader. BUT we do have one rule - - Dive Instructors and Dive Shop owners are not allowed to come and shoot fish in a barrel for training and gear sales. If you come to the club it's for social purposes only. If a class or email exchange forms out of a personal contact that's fine, but no panhandling at the table by the dive "professionals" is allowed.

We visit a local restaurant and patronize businesses in our community each Wednesday. We've found that bringing a 12-20 people or more to a restaurant for dinner and drinks repeatedly guarantees appropriate table space, and reasonably decent service. Total cost to run the dive club = $0.00. Volunteers only need to post on Facebook, create the occasional event, and everything runs smoothly. Easy...

 

[pasley]

Disclaimer: Not an attorney, not trained or educated in the law. The following does not constitute legal advice or even good advice. The following is just IMHO and for the sake of discussion. Do not rely on the information that follows for anything. You are advised to consult an attorney who specializes in this area of law.

So what if they sue the club? Scuba clubs don't have any money anyway.

If the lawsuit were to extend to individuals in the club, then the club is irrelevant anyway and the same thing would happen under a buddy diving relationship. The shop can protect themselves by not being involved in club business and by not organizing club dives.

The Dive club might not have any money, but what about the Board of Directors and/or the officers of the club? Do they have any assets? House? Bank Account? When one gets sued, the other may (often, usually?) too. I do hope the dive club has D&O insurance and a general liability policy is not a bad idea. IF the event is a club sanctioned event, then the club and/or its officers and Directors might also be named in a suit. The offices of Director and/or Officer of the club carries with it more than just a title. It carries responsibility and with that comes potential liability.

I would suggest a sit down by the club leadership (President, Directors etc) with an attorney who specialized in SCUBA lawsuits and discuss this issue.
From a laypersons position I would want to address the following concerns with a qualified attorney:
1. What is our liability exposure if the dive club selects a beach dive site, date and time?
2. What is our liability exposure if a club member leads the divers into the water on a beach dive and someone gets hurt?
3. What is our liability exposure if a club member or guest gets hurt on a beach dive and we do not have one or more of the following: Oxygen, AED, CPR qualified individual's, First Aid kit, person knowledgeable of first aid, a means of calling help etc.
4. What is our liability exposure if we do not have a DM on the beach during a club beach dive?
5. What is our liability exposure if we charter a dive boat for a day of diving? Does the club have any liability exposure? (the club selected and hired the operator and they mess up).
6. What is our liability exposure if at a club function (meeting, dive etc) alcohol is served (either furnished free or a bar is available for purchase) and a member or guest at the meeting gets hurt due to intoxication (at the meeting, driving home or on the boat.).
7. What constitutes a "Club"?. Does having a facebook page (I bet you have a catchy name for the page too) a regular dinner at a restaurant, and scheduling dives make it a "Club"? (I was a Sandeater, no dues, no officers, just a calendar with a dive scheduled each week. Were we lawsuit safe? I don't know).
8. What type of insurance should we have and how much? Note, there are non-profit insurance brokers who specialize in NON-PROFIT insurance at much cheaper rates.

Are any of the above real concerns? I don't know and unless you are a qualified attorney you probably don't either, hence my suggestion you talk to an attorney.

Remember, it is all fun and games until someone gets hurt, then it is CACHING!$$$$$$

Win or loose the club and its officers and directors may be left bankrupt after years of depositions, hearings, legal fees and the toll on your health. Attorney fees for a preventative consultation is better than lawsuit defense fees. No guarantee you still won't get sued, but at least you will be better prepared to defend yourself with policies and procedures and the appropriate insurance.

In closing I just want to add, I am not an attorney, and I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer so do not rely on any of this for advice. Chuckle, and shake you head or laugh out loud while you read the above, but do not rely on it. These comments are for entertainment use only.

 

[diversteve]

The shop that sponsors us has some concerns of liability.

Define exactly what this means. Otherwise everything you're reading here is intelligent speculation at best.

 

[nimoh]

Disclaimer: Not an attorney, not trained or educated in the law. The following does not constitute legal advice or even good advice. The following is just IMHO and for the sake of discussion. Do not rely on the information that follows for anything. You are advised to consult an attorney who specializes in this area of law.


The Dive club might not have any money, but what about the Board of Directors and/or the officers of the club? Do they have any assets? House? Bank Account? When one gets sued, the other may (often, usually?) too. I do hope the dive club has D&O insurance and a general liability policy is not a bad idea. IF the event is a club sanctioned event, then the club and/or its officers and Directors might also be named in a suit. The offices of Director and/or Officer of the club carries with it more than just a title. It carries responsibility and with that comes potential liability.

I would suggest a sit down by the club leadership (President, Directors etc) with an attorney who specialized in SCUBA lawsuits and discuss this issue.
From a laypersons position I would want to address the following concerns with a qualified attorney:
1. What is our liability exposure if the dive club selects a beach dive site, date and time?
2. What is our liability exposure if a club member leads the divers into the water on a beach dive and someone gets hurt?
3. What is our liability exposure if a club member or guest gets hurt on a beach dive and we do not have one or more of the following: Oxygen, AED, CPR qualified individual's, First Aid kit, person knowledgeable of first aid, a means of calling help etc.
4. What is our liability exposure if we do not have a DM on the beach during a club beach dive?
5. What is our liability exposure if we charter a dive boat for a day of diving? Does the club have any liability exposure? (the club selected and hired the operator and they mess up).
6. What is our liability exposure if at a club function (meeting, dive etc) alcohol is served (either furnished free or a bar is available for purchase) and a member or guest at the meeting gets hurt due to intoxication (at the meeting, driving home or on the boat.).
7. What constitutes a "Club"?. Does having a facebook page (I bet you have a catchy name for the page too) a regular dinner at a restaurant, and scheduling dives make it a "Club"? (I was a Sandeater, no dues, no officers, just a calendar with a dive scheduled each week. Were we lawsuit safe? I don't know).
8. What type of insurance should we have and how much? Note, there are non-profit insurance brokers who specialize in NON-PROFIT insurance at much cheaper rates.

Are any of the above real concerns? I don't know and unless you are a qualified attorney you probably don't either, hence my suggestion you talk to an attorney.

Remember, it is all fun and games until someone gets hurt, then it is CACHING!$$$$$$

Win or loose the club and its officers and directors may be left bankrupt after years of depositions, hearings, legal fees and the toll on your health. Attorney fees for a preventative consultation is better than lawsuit defense fees. No guarantee you still won't get sued, but at least you will be better prepared to defend yourself with policies and procedures and the appropriate insurance.

In closing I just want to add, I am not an attorney, and I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer so do not rely on any of this for advice. Chuckle, and shake you head or laugh out loud while you read the above, but do not rely on it. These comments are for entertainment use only.

That's a lot of work and expense for a scuba club. If I was concerned about these things, I would just leave the club and spend the time diving.

 

[Colliam7]

Please share thoughts in this. Are the specialties "required" before doing those dives or are try simply and additional resource? Do any if you have experience how other clubs have dealt with this? Thank you again!

We have an active dive club, with monthly cook-outs and dives, May - October, and monthly evening meetings, 12 months a year. It is shop-affiliated, and the monthly evening meetings are shop-managed - probably one of the reasons why we are the 'longest continually operating' club in the state, perhaps in a multi-state area. Our monthly cookouts are coordinated (dates planned, announcements made, food costs covered) by the shop but conducted by members. At each cook-out, members spend much of the day diving, in a local quarry - some dive dry, some dive wet, some dive vintage, some dive with DPVs, some dive sidemount, some dive back-mount doubles. No one checks credentials - to get into the quarry you have to show a C-card (mainly, you have to show a $20 bill); beyond that, you can do whatever the scuba park allows, and which doesn't get you shunned by other divers. Our shop conducts a Specialty of the Month course (or 2) in conjunction with each cook-out, so the argument could be made that the cook-out is more than a random event where a number of divers happen to show up independent of any shop tie. But, we don't require any certification pre-requisite for 'fun' dives that individual members conduct at the cook-out.