Specialties required? Dive club dilemma

[Storker]

Make it a social club, people show up and people dive, if people kill themselves with stupidity then that is their problem.

Although suicide by stupidity is legal (at least last time I checked), I don't want it to happen on my watch, in my club. It's pretty traumatic for the witnesses, it would ruin a nice outing, and it can easily make for bad press for the club. In our club, our rules simply state that one should dive within one's certification and experience. We don't check C-cards, but if someone wants to do a dive obviously beyond his (or her) capabilities, I guess that that person would have a hard time finding a willing buddy, and the dive leader would probably have a word or two with the yahoo.

Regarding the specific example in the OP, about a requiring a DS card, that would be utterly stupid around here. Everyone is assumed by default to be competent to dive dry, and hardly anyone has a DS card although they might have been diving dry for their last 100 (or more) dives.

 

[Scott]

Oh Joy, welcome to club "management".
If not already, NADS really needs to use an event waiver and have each participant sign before they even splash. Restricting divers based on knowledge (Dry Suit Diver) is silly. What if I was trained using a 'conventional' BC and showed up with a BC with an i3 or Air3?
I would suggest they have a conversation with their insurance carrier. Instructor insurance does not cover "dive a longs" and while I'm not an attorney, I'm pretty sure store insurance is for the building and contents.
I would be more concerned about the liability exposure by renting a boat for the last event than the exposure of allowing a non "specialty" certified diver. If that was the case they should have been concerned that not all the participants had altitude specialty ratings.

 

[DaleC]

Do you need a drysuit cert if you build your own drysuit?

I have been involved in three clubs (of a sort).

The first was an email call out list that we grew to be pretty successful in connecting local divers for dives. Several of us coordinated the list (updating names etc...) but there were no leaders, directors etc... These days FB tends to serve a similar function.

The second was a shop sponsored club that literally imploded because of over zealous (I'm being kind) leadership. The more independent divers soon shied away and all that were left were vacation type divers who wanted to be "managed" safely. I think it has re-emerged under different leadership.

The third is a social group with no affiliation but a long history. We don't have waivers of any sort, no one is asked to show a C card, no one signs anything and while individual members may volunteer to organize the logistics of trips, there is a clear expectation (or lack thereof) of all members being responsible for their own dive experience. The fact that I dive old or homemade gear solo on some outings being just such an example. If we use boats they are charters and they set the rules. Up here that also tends to be a pretty hands off approach with the philosophy that they drive you to and from the site but you manage your own dives.

The group, in no way, assumes responsibility for the "in water" experience of its members (we also do not have a safety coordinator) and this is demonstrated by our complete lack of management of divers, as divers.

 

[Akimbo]

I belong to my own dive club for solo divers. No one else is qualified to join according to the bylaws. I get away with strict dive qualifications with no legal liability at all. The only problem is I will probably get sued for gender discrimination.

 

[clownfishsydney]

I should have added that in our state (New South Wales) there is legislation that permits clubs to operate with limited liability. We are an incorporated organisation under that legislation, so if anyone did decide to sue the club (or its office holders), the law severely limits what they can get (that is the club's assets - a small amount of money). I would expect that most countries that have British based law systems would be similar.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Most of the people I dive with have never done a drysuit course, yet every single one of them dives in a drysuit. Over here, a drysuit is the only way to dive all year round and therefore most novices learn to dive in a drysuit during the OW course.

Our club is attached to a commercial dive school, but the diving activities are generally pretty informal. Although they check initially that people are certified, nobody cares if you do a dive with a particular speciality, or even dive beyond your certification - we're all adults and we are all responsible for ourselves. When I have dived off boats, I have not once been asked for proof of certification. Most have a disclaimer to sign where we are declaring that we are suitably qualified and fit for the activity we are undertaking, but once we are in the water, we are responsible for ourselves.

The liability issue is non-existent as I see it. I know we have different laws on this side of the pond, but I think the negligence laws are pretty similar. In that in order to prove a claim for a tort of negligence, you must demonstrate that a) they owed you a duty of care, b) they failed in that duty of care, and c) that failure resulted in a loss or injury. By sponsoring a club, I cannot possibly see how the shop owes them a duty of care unless they directly organise diving activities.

The shop however, has no obligation to provide such sponsorship and could withdraw their support, but would you be bothered? Over here, clubs are dying of death. My club has around 200 members (which I think is massively exaggerated by the owner of the school). The two facebook dive clubs I am a member of have 297 and 815 members. Neither of these have a committee, instructors, treasurers, equipment or any club funds. All they do is provide a platform for divers to communicate.

In the olden days, communication with several people meant picking up the phone and ringing loads of people. A club made this easier by acting as a hub for communications. With social media, you no longer need this as anybody can post to a facebook group for everyone to see.

My local dive shop owner is a member of several of these groups. He knows that the best way to get business is to treat people with courtesy in respect and to let them get on with things. He does not use bully-boy tactics to impose rules that mean people are forced to either buy his kit or do courses with him. He also knows that if he did, he'd be told to take a hike.

 

[Joyinthewater]

Thank you so much... This is such helpful input.

 

[Nemrod]

I have recently started a dive club with substantial help from this board. Thank you! We are currently facing a bit of a dilemma. Some feel that we should not allow divers to, for instant, join in the club dive using a drysuit, if they are not drysuit certified. The shop that sponsors us has some concerns of liability. However, it seems to me that if we say no one can dive off a boat without the boat specialty, or do a night dive without the night dive specialty, we will kill off rather then encourage our diving community. I am all for getting advanced training, but most if us are on limited budgets and feel we need to spread out getting specialties so we can do some diving.
Please share thoughts in this. Are the specialties "required" before doing those dives or are try simply and additional resource? Do any if you have experience how other clubs have dealt with this? Thank you again!

This is why every club I have ever been in failed. Rule number one, avoid a sponsoring retail dive business. Rule number two, avoid a sponsoring retail dive business, rule number three, leave off the rules.

N

 

[Joyinthewater]

Thanks all of you! I really appreciate you taking time to give me your input and it is extremely helpful.
I am new to this, our sponsoring shop is new to this, and we are all learning!
We have a Facebook page and monthly meetings and dives. We are having a lot of fun and forming friendships diving. I hope we will promote diving in the community. You all are helping with this so thanks!
And I think we will not require anything beyond Open Water. We do require everyone to sign a waiver and as you have pointed out, we are each responsible for ourselves. Happy Diving!