Sport diver dies doing commercial work NFLND

[rmediver2002]

Don't get to worked up boys, if you check his profile he is not even a certified open water diver yet...

Medic - thats trolling in my book, stick to what you know...

Deep Sea

 

[medic_diver45]

Don't get to worked up boys, if you check his profile he is not even a certified open water diver yet...

Medic - thats trolling in my book, stick to what you know...

Deep Sea

I'm just speaking from the perspective of someone who has been through the open water course before (I missed my last open water dive because I was in a car accident and could not dive with a cast on my leg; the dive instructor told me that since I took a year to recover to the point where my doctor would sign the paper to let me dive, that I would have to do the whole class again. I'm just waiting a month until I can get somewhere that's actually worth diving in.

I'm not trying to cause trouble, i'm not trying to belittle commercial divers. I sure as the hell wouldn't want your job- kudos to you for doing it; really deep water scares the **** out of me. But that attitude comes from mucking around, skin diving the local water traps with a friend for extra money during our high school days (all of 5 years ago). Yes there are hazards that go along with that, but as I said before, no one else could have been held responsible for my actions. Now if you're working for someone who is forcing you to violate a law, then they should be partly responsible, but the responsibility to maintain one's safety still falls to the diver, as has been said multiple times on here.

Yes there are US dive regs about commercial work, but from what I have seen (keep in mind I have no real interest in doing this kind of work so my knowledge of the regs is just cursory), is aimed at the deep water welding and recovery stuff. No one has ever called us on things like hooking up cables to shallow sunken cars for tow truck drivers (a quick $200 for us, in 10 feet of water) and since the nearest professional divers (other than the local state police and department of natural resources divers- and they are only professionals in the loosest sense of the word in that they are paid) are over 4 hrs away near Chicago.

By the way, I don't hear an outcry to stop people from diving in non-open water environments as kelp forests despite the risks. It would seem that such activities (dealing with the risk of entanglement) would be far greater than mucking around the bottom of a small pond in Indiana. I won't go into a kelp forest for anything, not even if there were gold bars strewn about.

I don't take unnecessary risks, and I dive very carefully. Semper paratus, semper gumby- always ready, always flexible. Just my humble opinion.

 

[MikeFerrara]

First off, please quote from the standards of any dive agency showing how OW (open water) divers are trained for the risks involved in working in water traps, including working IN the bottom. It is called Open Water for a reason, OW divers are not trained to deal with anything beyond staying alive underwater on scuba.

"OW divers aren't trained for much of anything beyond breathing. However, technical training does train for mission oriented dives. Still, there certainly are specific hazards like contaminated water that might not be part of the training.

Second, the article does say he was working on moorings. Have you ever worked on a mooring?
Even moorings for small boats are very large and heavy and there are lots of opportunities for problems. Heck, most people won't even work on these things topside, all of the parts are large and heavy, rusty and the visability is generally poor to start and nonexistent as soon as you start to work.

Around here it's the charters themselves (and sometimes the various shipwreck preservation or historical societies) that pitch in to keep moorings on the wrecks. I don't think any one gets paid for it and I never heard of a commercial dive oporation being hired. I wonder what it would cost to have a commercial outfit install three moorings on a wreck at 250 ft and who would pay it...the charters...who work over a three or four month season? Nope. they'd go back to hooking them with an anchore and tearing them to pieces I think. Installing a mooring isn't that bi of a deal, IMO.

I have family who owns a HUGE marina. There are maybe 50 very large floating docks (I'm just guessing at the number but there's lots of them). The marina is on a reservoir so the water level changes often and by as much as maybe 30 ft.

Each doc (which in some cases must be half a city block long) are held down and adjusted by multiple steel cables on winches. the cables are anchored by concrete blocks out in the bay.

The cable system and anchores are inspected, maintained and repaired by the family that owns it...meaning that I've done some of this work myself. Inspections need to be done often and there isn't any way that any one could afford to have a commercial outfit come in to do it. These docks are often intalled by the owners as well. They fabricate the concrete anchors, haul them out in the bay, drop them and rig the cable.

I do know that one of the companies that builds and installs docks of this type will use any one willing to do the underwater work including employees who happen to be divers. They'll let them do it for their normal hourerly wage (probably minimum wage) if they can get away with it. These are the people who need to be protected by regulations and not the person who wants to do their own work.

A commercial diver needs to be completely comfortable in his (her) gear and diving, handling problems needs to be automatic because you can't be thinking about your diving. You have to be thinking about the job and getting it done. You have to be alert to the dangers and that means you need to know what the dangers are. That means additional training and on the job experience.

The commercial diving regulations came about because divers were dieing on the job. Not to protect some fat cat job.

Employees should be protected from cheap employers. Divers doing what they want should be left alone, IMO.

 

[rmediver2002]

I am not sure there is anything to be gained from discussing this issue on an open board, it would apear that we all have our own opinions about it and I highly doubt any of us will change our perspective about it.

One thing to mention though is that as the legislation exists currently, the projects that have been discussed when not conducted in accordance with these regulations are illegal.

By the way if someone does want to do thier own work they are free to conduct those operations OSHA and the Coast Guard have specific requirements for manning and equipment that must be met but they do not specify a paticular level of training other than the diver must be trained in the project being performed and the equipment being used. This is one of the flaws that has been corrected in the re-writing of the canadian standard.

The regulations we are currently working under are over 30 years old now and have had very little in the way of modification during that time, I for one would like to see us adopt a program similar to HSE as Canada has recently.

You bring up good points Mike in that there are some jobs that could not currently be funded if left exclusively to the commercial industry, that does not make breaking the law allowable but it does point out the need for change...

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/commercialdiving/

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_98/46cfr197_98.html

 

[pipedope]

One thing that anyone who wants to go do working dives without the proper stuff is that most insurance policies are written such that the insurance company can deny any claim resulting from illegal acts.

How will your family feel when you are dead or seriously injuried and they find that there is NO coverage?

I am an advocate for the appropriate level of dive team, equipment and procedures for the job being done, but there is only so far you can go without getting people killed.

If you are working on moorings you really MUST have some form of communications between the diver and the surface AND you MUST have someone on site who can go rescue a trapped diver. If you don't and someone dies then someone should go to jail, manslaughter at least and perhaps murder.

Come on Mike, you are frequently slamming PADI for their low (in your opinion) standards but you think commercial diving should LOWER their standards? I'm sorry but that makes no sense.

 

[MikeFerrara]

One thing that anyone who wants to go do working dives without the proper stuff is that most insurance policies are written such that the insurance company can deny any claim resulting from illegal acts.

Show me where installing a morring for your own use is an illegal act in the US. OSHA doesn't have any say as far as I know unless there is an employee/employer relationship involved and in these cases there isn't.

How will your family feel when you are dead or seriously injuried and they find that there is NO coverage?

The only insurance that covers me when diving is my regular medical policy and my DAN insurance. Neither has a clause that says that I can install a mooring.

I am an advocate for the appropriate level of dive team, equipment and procedures for the job being done, but there is only so far you can go without getting people killed.

If you are working on moorings you really MUST have some form of communications between the diver and the surface AND you MUST have someone on site who can go rescue a trapped diver. If you don't and someone dies then someone should go to jail, manslaughter at least and perhaps murder.

Funny we do long deep cave dives working with line without com to the surface or some one to come get us if we become trapped. We have a team with us and that's who rescues you if you become trapped.

Come on Mike, you are frequently slamming PADI for their low (in your opinion) standards but you think commercial diving should LOWER their standards? I'm sorry but that makes no sense.

Installing a mooring is just a common part of wreck diving. Wreck divers are the ones who put them there.

What make no sense is confusing the two! I'm not saying that a new PADI certified OW diver should install a mooring on the Vernon at 180 ft. A new PADI OW diver shouldn't dive without an instructor but that's not what we're talking about.

 

[MikeFerrara]

From one of the above links...The definition of a commercial diver. Notince the word "hire".

Commercial diver means a diver engaged in underwater work for hire
excluding sport and recreational diving and the instruction thereof.
Commercial diving operation means all activities in support of a
commercial diver.

Sorry but when we put a mooring on a wreck so we can dive it without damaging it with an anchor no one is paying us and there is no employer or employee of any kind envolved.

 

[medic_diver45]

Good point.

 

[MikeFerrara]

BTW, Does any one have any information on what actually happened on the dive?

This isn't just another solo death or something is it?

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I and a dive buddy maintain a series of moorings and since we do it for free as a service to the local diving community it is certainly not "for hire" and not "commercial" even though we may charge other people for doing the same service from time to time. We lift and move large rocks and anchors, work in deep water and play with cable and other entanglement hazards often in low or no viz. It is hazardous and requires training, but it is not commercial work.

Less clearly defined is the service we provide maintaining the docks for the local marinas. We again lift and move large anchors and check and rig a great deal of cable, often in low viz or no viz. I get a great slip out of the deal as well as other preferential treatment, get well fed and don't buy a lot of the gas for my boat during the course of the season. But it does not meet the definition of an employee/employer relationship for a variety of reasons, but most importantly as the decision to show up or when to show up is entirely mine.

What is clear is that when I charge $100 to $200 per hour to show up and dive somewhere to perform a a specific job for someone, it is a commercial dive. What the goverment thinks about this is however sometimes a little odd. The US Forest Service recently called me to locate and recover a 108 gallon fire bucket that had been dropped and lost in one of the local lakes with zero viz. When they discovered that I am a government employee for my primary job, they wanted to pay me my regular hourly salary and just have my department bill their department for my time. The problem is I don't dive in zero viz and in potentially hazardous conditions for what they pay me as a vocational rehabilitation counselor. The government provided none of my training or equipment and is responsible for none of my diving experience, so I feel no obligation to work for them for peanut wages. So when I declined to do it that way they had to set me up as a vendor and pay me as an independent contractor - which they had no problem doing as long as it was clear to all involved that they had no worker comp liability if I got my self hurt or killed.