Sport diver dies doing commercial work NFLND

[Mr Adams]

Hi

I believe what happened here is the diver was alone and became tangled up on line and simply ran out of air and drowned. I know that if he was on a surface supplied air unit with a safety tender on coms he would still be alive. This is were the line must be drawn between sport and commercial divers. In technical open circuit diving we follow certain guidelines to get us to the wreck and back to the surface safely, the same guideline are set up for commercial diving jobs were a diver is trained specifically for mechanical construction work using specialized equipment. Now! just imagine if this man had life insurance and the insurance company realized he was doing a job that he was not skilled to do, well guess what there will be no coverage for his family, just a bill for recovering his body. Theirs no mercy in this world anymore, you need to be smart and judge wisely.


Safe diving


Mr A

 

[rmediver2002]

I and a dive buddy maintain a series of moorings and since we do it for free as a service to the local diving community it is certainly not "for hire" and not "commercial" even though we may charge other people for doing the same service from time to time. We lift and move large rocks and anchors, work in deep water and play with cable and other entanglement hazards often in low or no viz. It is hazardous and requires training, but it is not commercial work.

Less clearly defined is the service we provide maintaining the docks for the local marinas. We again lift and move large anchors and check and rig a great deal of cable, often in low viz or no viz. I get a great slip out of the deal as well as other preferential treatment, get well fed and don't buy a lot of the gas for my boat during the course of the season. But it does not meet the definition of an employee/employer relationship for a variety of reasons, but most importantly as the decision to show up or when to show up is entirely mine.

What is clear is that when I charge $100 to $200 per hour to show up and dive somewhere to perform a a specific job for someone, it is a commercial dive. What the goverment thinks about this is however sometimes a little odd. The US Forest Service recently called me to locate and recover a 108 gallon fire bucket that had been dropped and lost in one of the local lakes with zero viz. When they discovered that I am a government employee for my primary job, they wanted to pay me my regular hourly salary and just have my department bill their department for my time. The problem is I don't dive in zero viz and in potentially hazardous conditions for what they pay me as a vocational rehabilitation counselor. The government provided none of my training or equipment and is responsible for none of my diving experience, so I feel no obligation to work for them for peanut wages. So when I declined to do it that way they had to set me up as a vendor and pay me as an independent contractor - which they had no problem doing as long as it was clear to all involved that they had no worker comp liability if I got my self hurt or killed.

You have stated your perception of employer employee relationship but I can tell you from conversations with the Director of Maritime Compliance for OSHA that his perception and that of his investigators is that "if any form of compensation was delivered then an employer employee relationship was established."

What you have described is commercial diving, diving for hire, and performing work underwater.

You obviously feel you are adequately trained to handle the tasks, but you should be performing the work (the same as any other diving contractor) in accordance with the regulations (equipment, manning, safety) on commercial diving.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Good point.

Don't misunderstand what I was trying to say though.

There are two issues. One is the question of what's legal. I don't know anything about what's legal in Canada but as far as I can tell I can do what I want underwater here as long as it doesn't meet the legal definition of commercial.

The other issue is one of being equiped and capable of doing the job. As a general statement I'd be comfortable stating that working with lines, lifbags and many of the other potential hazards of underwater work may require training and/or experience beyond what many recreational divers have.

Any mission or task oriented dive takes on a different deimension from just scooting around a reef sight seeing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hi

I believe what happened here is the diver was alone and became tangled up on line and simply ran out of air and drowned.

If you are correct about what happened. The line got him and not the fact that he was diving for hire.

There is plenty of non-commercial training available concerning working with lines.

I know that if he was on a surface supplied air unit with a safety tender on coms he would still be alive.

If he had a buddy to simply untangle him he would likely be alive too.

This is were the line must be drawn between sport and commercial divers.

In technical open circuit diving we follow certain guidelines to get us to the wreck and back to the surface safely, the same guideline are set up for commercial diving jobs were a diver is trained specifically for mechanical construction work using specialized equipment.[/QUOTE]

This was a line not an underwater jackhammer or something. He could have just as easily been tangled in his own wreck line or a coil of wire discarded on the bottom of the lake. Entanglement is a potential hazard of EVERY dive we do and even more so when we choose to work with line for whatever reason.

I'm sorry if your account of this accident is accurate it sounds like just another solo diving death and I don't see how the fact that the diver may have been being paid has anything to do with it. The one exception I would make to that statement is that if his employer forced him to do the job as a condition of employment without the proper equipment, training and procedures.[QUOTE

Now! just imagine if this man had life insurance and the insurance company realized he was doing a job that he was not skilled to do, well guess what there will be no coverage for his family, just a bill for recovering his body. Theirs no mercy in this world anymore, you need to be smart and judge wisely.[/QUOTE]


There aren't any such contingincies in my insurance policy. I imagine they might not pay if I was killed in the commision of a crime but even then I think it has to be a felony. If I speed in my car or cross a double yellow and die doing it they'll pay. I can work any side job I want without invalidating my coverage. The policy doesn't say anything about any measures of my skill being a determining factor. I could fall off a ladder and get killed while painting my house and you wouldn't have a hard time proving that I am not a trained or skilled painter. The insurance company will still pay.

I sure am glad I still have the legal breathing room to climb a ladder if I want to (even though I hate climbing).

 

[gfisher4792]

Just out of curiosity, if someone pays you $100 to plug a hole in his 4 foot deep swimming pool, do you technically have to apply OSHA standards to the dive?

 

[pipedope]

Put the hair splitting aside.

Just because a dive is dangerous and you are getting paid for it doesn't mean that if you are not getting paid the dive is any less dangerous.

Always dive within your training.

A recreational certification is not training for working underwater.

 

[rmediver2002]

Just out of curiosity, if someone pays you $100 to plug a hole in his 4 foot deep swimming pool, do you technically have to apply OSHA standards to the dive?

Yes you would, this is the same as when you take someone out on your boat. If you do not have a commercial captains license then you can not legally accept any compensation, even money for gas...

 

[rmediver2002]

If you are correct about what happened. The line got him and not the fact that he was diving for hire.

There is plenty of non-commercial training available concerning working with lines.

If he had a buddy to simply untangle him he would likely be alive too.

In technical open circuit diving we follow certain guidelines to get us to the wreck and back to the surface safely, the same guideline are set up for commercial diving jobs were a diver is trained specifically for mechanical construction work using specialized equipment.

This was a line not an underwater jackhammer or something. He could have just as easily been tangled in his own wreck line or a coil of wire discarded on the bottom of the lake. Entanglement is a potential hazard of EVERY dive we do and even more so when we choose to work with line for whatever reason.

I'm sorry if your account of this accident is accurate it sounds like just another solo diving death and I don't see how the fact that the diver may have been being paid has anything to do with it. The one exception I would make to that statement is that if his employer forced him to do the job as a condition of employment without the proper equipment, training and procedures.[QUOTE

Now! just imagine if this man had life insurance and the insurance company realized he was doing a job that he was not skilled to do, well guess what there will be no coverage for his family, just a bill for recovering his body. Theirs no mercy in this world anymore, you need to be smart and judge wisely.[/QUOTE]


There aren't any such contingincies in my insurance policy. I imagine they might not pay if I was killed in the commision of a crime but even then I think it has to be a felony. If I speed in my car or cross a double yellow and die doing it they'll pay. I can work any side job I want without invalidating my coverage. The policy doesn't say anything about any measures of my skill being a determining factor. I could fall off a ladder and get killed while painting my house and you wouldn't have a hard time proving that I am not a trained or skilled painter. The insurance company will still pay.

I sure am glad I still have the legal breathing room to climb a ladder if I want to (even though I hate climbing).[/QUOTE]

You may be right on this one Mike, and I think we are discussing the same point here.

In commercial diving even when one diver is in the water he is always line tended, they have the ability to call for the standby diver to assist. This is one of the points I was trying to make in following the legislation and performing the dives legally.

No commercial diver is ever diving solo even if they are the only one in the water at the time...

 

[MikeFerrara]

A recreational certification is not training for working underwater.

Could you please define "working" and reconcile or contrast your statement with what is taught in the following PADI classes?

Search and Recovery
LAW 1
LAW 2
Underwater Crime Scene Investigation.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gfisher4792
Just out of curiosity, if someone pays you $100 to plug a hole in his 4 foot deep swimming pool, do you technically have to apply OSHA standards to the dive?

Yes you would, this is the same as when you take someone out on your boat. If you do not have a commercial captains license then you can not legally accept any compensation, even money for gas...

Well I'm guilty here. LOL

I've spent a lot of time in our OW training pools with a bottle of die looking for leaks. I didn't get the $100 but I was never in any serious danger either. Well, The clorine can mess up your hair some.