Standard MOD

[ucfdiver]

This is an interesting discussion, esp. hearing about senarios where you might have multiple bottom mixes. But, you know UTD's stance on stage markings and what they are teaching, it may be a tad disingenuous to say it is due to "cheapness". I would be surprised if anyone in this discussion has had anyone legitimately say to them "I don't want to pay what it costs to label my tanks."

Clarifying Stage Bottle Markings vs Deco Bottle Markings - Unified Team Diving

AG didn't provide one reason why it's BETTER not to mark them. I've heard reasons it's better *to* mark them. That's what it boils down to for me.

I'm working on a mapping project of a cave right now. It's incredibly minor compared to the impressive tasks that some of the GUE projects involve, but these fundamental rules still apply. Currently the trend is 90-100ft depths, but it's only been explored out to about 3600ft, with going passage. If the cave went 20ft deeper (and that's very likely to happen), I would certainly be forced to switch from 32% or 30/30 to 21/35 or 18/45. Dropping safety bottles can take 1-2 dives, which could mean an entire weekend. Having to pull them and replace could take 2 weekends for me since I work full time during the week. With rains and such, 2 weeks could be a HUGE portion of my window of opportunity. Point being the WKPP, EKPP, OCDA and various other DIR cave exploration teams have been incredibly successful following the original protocols. Why change things for no good reason?

That being said, if you're not seeing any benefit to marking your stages, by all means, don't mark them. Just don't call it DIR in an attempt to market classes.

 

[Jasonmh]

.. I've heard reasons it's better *to* mark them. That's what it boils down to for me..

cool

.. ...That being said, if you're not seeing any benefit to marking your stages, by all means, don't mark them. Just don't call it DIR in an attempt to market classes.

Understand that I am not arguing the ultimate DIRness of stage markings, I am just saying that it has nothing to do with being cheap.

 

[rjack321]

This is going to bite you in the ass the day you actually forget to label a tank or get handed somebody elses unlabeled tank from the boat.

Ding.

Apart from all the cave issues this is the one that really applies to OW/wreck/charter diving.

It pisses me off the AndrewG (& crew) is creating a whole generation of lazy "DIR" divers who are too cheap and shortsighted to recognize that AL80s get swapped around just like regs and having unmarked bottom stages is akin to green hosed O2 regs, yellow hosed nitrox regs, and black hosed bottom gas regs and other such nonsense.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Is it really that much extra work that is needed to label everything? Seems like labeling makes things EASIER, because it prevents the need to constantly reanalyze.

 

[rjack321]

This is an interesting discussion, esp. hearing about senarios where you might have multiple bottom mixes. But, you know UTD's stance on stage markings and what they are teaching, it may be a tad disingenuous to say it is due to "cheapness". I would be surprised if anyone in this discussion has had anyone legitimately say to them "I don't want to pay what it costs to label my tanks."

Clarifying Stage Bottle Markings vs Deco Bottle Markings - Unified Team Diving

No its cheap, not necessarily financially, mostly mentally. The poorest logic I've heard about a "team" practice ever. I'm not going to bring it up further here, my concerns are quite adequately elaborated in the thread you linked.

 

[DaleC]

Or maybe they thought about it as long (or longer) than you and just came to a different conclusion.

One could argue that having the MOD marked on backgas creates safety true (that's the upside) but isn't a diver who fails to check to see if the bottle is marked with their initials the same one who will neglect to look at the MOD markings? The downside is that someone who permanently marks backgas bottles (where mixes are varied according to the dive) could add a mix other than that designated by the MOD and not change the marking (intentionally or not). Both scenarios have equal origins in operator error (grabbing the wrong bottle/forgetting to change MODs).

Which creates the bigger risk: Relying on permanent MOD's that may not reflect the mix in the bottle; or not relying on posted MOD's for backgas that can be breathed throughout the dive regardless (James example of multiple, multiple bottles not withstanding)?

If a team is on the ball and ensures they are taking the right bottles for the right dive, does marking the MOD on backgas serve any function. If it is there to catch someone not focussing on taking their own gear should one apply an "equipment solution for a skills problem" or developing a proticol to safeguard against that laxity.

I can see UTD's position and I can also see James position as well. To me it depends on where you are going to be diving. Marking, or not marking, could pose risks on either side of the equation depending on the environment.

 

[rjack321]

Which creates the bigger risk: Relying on permanent MOD's that may not reflect the mix in the bottle; or not relying on posted MOD's for backgas that can be breathed throughout the dive regardless (James example of multiple, multiple bottles not withstanding)?

Spurious argument. EAN50 deco bottles are not <only> filled with EAN50. Many divers only have a few deco bottles and might fill them with O2 & relabel them on occasion. Permanently (which is a bit of a misnomer since the labels are easily scraped off) marking deco bottles but not marking bottom stages is a double standard.

A fill station operator should not be letting mismarked bottom stages out of the shop. e.g. 25/25 in a "220ft" bottle etc. This mismatch should be caught again during analysis by the user, again by the deckhand passing a cylinder to a diver, and once again by the buddy as they drop. 3+ layers for multiple people to say "STOP this is wrong."

Vs. 2 unmarked bottom cylinders which can go from fill station, to truck, to boat, and only get mixed up at the last possible moment when the deckhand passes the wrong one to a diver. Now the diver's hustling to drop and its too late to halt the trainwreck.

 

[amascuba]

I think it's funny that we can't have a conversation, debate, or whatever you call it without some individuals getting pretty defensive and resort to GI3 like tactics. I'm not a mindless drone. I'm not going to automatically start doing things a certain way because person A and B tell me to. I want to fully understand the reasoning why procedures are the way they are.

KMD has thus far provided the best example that I can relate to. I'm admittedly not the most experienced diver in this forum, but surely I can express a point of view and ask others to elaborate on why my thinking is flawed without getting defensive about it.

I hadn't fully read through AG's stance on not marking stage bottles, but I see his point as it's how I felt about it to begin with.

From my point of view:

1. A MOD sticker shouldn't be used to determine what the contents of a gas is. It's strictly a sanity check for your team mate to determine whether your possibly breathing off a bottle deeper than it's supposed to go. If a bottle doesn't have a MOD sticker than it's assumed that it's appropriate for the deepest portion of the dive.

2. The analysis sticker should be what a diver goes by:

If your being handed bottles that aren't marked at all and only going by what the MOD sticker say's, then that's an issue with being lazy, complacent, or what ever you want to call it.

If your being handed bottles that you haven't mixed and analyzed yourself, then why aren't you looking at the analysis sticker before the dive or before you clip them off when picking them up in a cave? That seems to be an issue complacency as well.

3. Why are you taking stage bottles deeper then their intended depths?

IMHO, those are issues with not taking the time to verify what you're taking with you and breathing. Lacking a MOD sticker isn't about being cheap. Surely if a person can afford a stage setup (AL80, stage rigging, stage reg) for a cost of around $500, then they can afford the $5 for a sharpie and duct tape.

Beyond that, mark your stage bottles all you want. It's really no skin off my back. If any of us do any dives together, then we'll discuss our differences in protocol before we jump in the water.

 

[LiteHedded]

i wonder why AG marked his stages on the brittannic but now it's a bad idea.

 

[ianr33]

3. Why are you taking stage bottles deeper then their intended depths?

Because the cave gets shallower further in?