Standardized Prices?

[nadwidny]

The simple truth of why my courses cost $200 a day.

Per person. Which on a 6 person DIRF course is $1200/day to you. For a 3 person Tech 1 course that's $600 for the day.

 

[Gareth]

Per person. Which on a 6 person DIRF course is $1200/day to you.

Which would be a breach not only of GUE standards but also UK Health and Safety legislation. Anything more than three people in the real world and I have another instructor with me. Who also expects to be paid. Even if it was $1200 per day, that's still less than my day job, which doesn't require me to requalify every year, or be responsible for people's safety.

Like I said, it's perception that's skewed, not instructor rates of pay. If you think it's high pay, I wonder why so few instructors are full time. It costs me more in a daily rate for climbing instruction. Hell it costs me more to pay for horse riding lessons for my wife, or even 8 hours of driving lessons in the uk. There's not much professional education you can get for about $20 per hour, which is what fundies works out as per person.

However, if you think it's expensive, the great news is that GUE training is neither mandatory nor for everyone. Without exception, the people that DO train with me say fundies is the best value diving training they have had. Which is ironic.

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[eelnoraa]

Before anyone start to compare fundie vs any Padi class in a $/day sense, let's also consider a more meaningful unit, $/hour per instructor to student ratio.

My fundie duration is 5.5 day total. But the 0.5 day is a 8 hour. The full day is a 12 hour day. During the class hour, the instructors are either conducting lecture, diving with your, doing surface breifing between all the mini dives, and full day dive debreif with video review. Instructor to student ratio is 1:3. But actual staff vs student ratio is more like 2:3 (at least one other diver is shooting video in all dives) .Looking back, I really don't think the instructors are in for the money, they must love what they are doing to get to this kind of dedicated level.

Try to get that kind of instruction time in an average or even above average PADI class

 

[Redshift]

I don't think it's fair to compare apples with oranges. Both are fruits, like PADI OW and a GUE course are about diving, but that's it.

Gareth, I just stated that some things that people use as arguments to justify the high costs of GUE courses are not specific to GUE. If you charge what you charge because that's how much you feel you are worth, it's one thing, but the training, time spent with students, extra equipment... are not exclusive of GUE.

The fact that you had to travel a lot doesn't say anything about the instruction, it's just a consequence of lack of GUE instructors. (Many cave divers still go to Florida to become instructors as well). Of course you want a return on investment, but a diver thinking of taking a GUE course is not thinking like that, it's comparing the cost of the course with what they'll get for it. That goes into what has been said, that GUE divers who become instructors were charged a lot and now need to charge a lot as well. But with more instructors available and less need to travel to several countries, the costs should go down. Also, instructors in countries with different cost of life should have different pricing.

And it's very different from business. In business a consultant or someone providing training charges certain fees, but which the company expects to cover with increase in profits resulting of that work. If it doesn't happen, they stop hiring that expensive person. In diving, we spend money only to be allowed to spend even more.

I agree that anyone should be paid a fairly and that some courses are undercharged. But the problem with full time instruction is that it's often not full time, it's a course from time to time.

 

[Gareth]

The fact that you had to travel a lot doesn't say anything about the instruction, it's just a consequence of lack of GUE instructors. (Many cave divers still go to Florida to become instructors as well). Of course you want a return on investment, but a diver thinking of taking a GUE course is not thinking like that

I disagree. In my experience divers are very much looking for value for money and ROI. In fact, if that isn't the case, why does this thread exist. It's because some people obviously perceive GUE courses as NOT being value for money. People very much think about a return on investment when taking a diving course. What gas will I get? what depth will I get? One of the issues getting people to take fundies is that the ROI is not as obvious as with other courses because it doesn't give you more depth or gas

That goes into what has been said, that GUE divers who become instructors were charged a lot and now need to charge a lot as well. But with more instructors available and less need to travel to several countries, the costs should go down. Also, instructors in countries with different cost of life should have different pricing

Your arguments suggests I charge a lot to get a return on my investment. In the real world, that's never going to happen. I just don't make enough on the courses I teach to ever recoup the real costs of becoming an instructor. I'm not sure I agree that instructors should charge based on their costs of living either. They should charge whatever the market will support, and whatever they need to in order for their business to remain viable, as with any business.

And it's very different from business. In business a consultant or someone providing training charges certain fees, but which the company expects to cover with increase in profits resulting of that work. If it doesn't happen, they stop hiring that expensive person. In diving, we spend money only to be allowed to spend even more.

It's a business like any other. From my perspective I have expenses such as travel, accommodation, rescue diver and video diver wages, servicing, accountants and requalification fees, the list goes on. Against that I have course fees. Both myself and the inland revenue in the UK expects me to make a profit. From the diver perspective a training course is usually viewed as an investment. I pay X, I get Y. If that investment is not deemed attractive, no purchase is made. Couldn't be more of a business decision.

I agree that anyone should be paid a fairly and that some courses are undercharged. But the problem with full time instruction is that it's often not full time, it's a course from time to time.

Don't really follow this, I'm afraid.

Anyway, I must away. Got to go to work. I simply wanted to raise the point that the courses are not as expensive as some might suggest, when value for money is considered. In reality, anyone reading this thread and thinking of undertaking GUE Training really only has one resource for assessing value. Ask a cross section of people who have DONE the course what they think and whether they consider it value for money, because they will be the only truly informed people. It's definitely the main thing I worry about AFTER the course - did that person feel like it was money well spent and are they happy with the training they received.

 

[rivers]

I have just finished the GUE Rec 3 course (40m course with limited decompression, trimix, and a single stage). The comparable PADI course would be Tec 40 (40m course with limited decompression and a single stage). I have looked up prices locally in the UK for the Tec 40 course. The running rate is about £400, and that doesn't include site entry, manuals, gas fills for students and instructors, or accommodation if needed. The course takes a total of 3 days with 4 dives. And it also looks like most places use a local deep quarry for the dives, and if you don't live in Wales, have to pay an additional £7/day to cross the bridge. So all told, you're probably looking at about £650 for Tec 40.
Rec 3 (just the course) is about the same cost for Tec 40 all in. But, it is 5 days in length, and we did a total of 10 dives on the course (plus a day of fun dives on our own). And I did the course in Croatia as I couldn't think of anything worse than spending £50 on a gas fill to stare at a rock wall. But, our days were long (not as long as fundies) and started between 8 and 9 am and finished sometime between 7 and 9. I probably had somewhere around the vicinity of 15 hours at least in water time this week, plus field drills and theory and video debriefs. Car and boat rides were spent discussing what was going to happen on the dives, who was going to do what, asking questions, and dinner was much the same. Overall, with the course fees, flights, gas and boats costs, accommodation and share of instructor expenses, i spent around £1200. And it was worth every penny.

GUE training isn't for everyone. It isn't cheap, but when compared to what you get on some other courses, you begin to see why the costs are what they are. I'm not saying other agency courses are bad, I haven't taken them, so can't compare. I can only compare what I know to be the standards for the GUE courses I've taken and what I read as the standards for other agency courses.

 

[Redshift]

I'm not sure I agree that instructors should charge based on their costs of living either. They should charge whatever the market will support, and whatever they need to in order for their business to remain viable, as with any business. It's a business like any other. From my perspective...

Yes, you are a business, but who is hiring you, in case of diving, is not. So while another business hiring a service provider will do so expecting to recover the costs, a diver can never recover them. It can however, as you pointed out, have a perception of what they are getting in return. And what they get in return is often not connected to how much the instructor spent to become an instructor. And we see a lot people justifying GUE course prices with what the divers get from the instructor. I just pointed out that while it's a certainty with GUE, it also happens with other instructors, although standards can vary more. (I liked your take on agency standards and instructor quality. But it's not only related to the cost of the training)

Don't really follow this, I'm afraid.

I was saying that sometimes it's harder to be a full time instructor also because "full time" doesn't usually mean doing courses full time in the same sense as a person with a regular 40h/week (or whatever it is in the country) job. So one can see the fact that the prices are high, not just because the training is worth that value, but because they need to charge that in order to stay afloat in a market that does not need so frequent courses.

Anyway, I must away. Got to go to work. I simply wanted to raise the point that the courses are not as expensive as some might suggest, when value for money is considered. In reality, anyone reading this thread and thinking of undertaking GUE Training really only has one resource for assessing value. Ask a cross section of people who have DONE the course what they think and whether they consider it value for money, because they will be the only truly informed people. It's definitely the main thing I worry about AFTER the course - did that person feel like it was money well spent and are they happy with the training they received.

I am not saying you charge too much or that GUE courses are not valuable. I didn't even go check current training prices. But in general they are more expensive than equivalent courses. (Not comparing PADI OW with GUE courses). And often the reason is not the added value of the course but the fact that it already cost the instructor a lot to become instructor. So the diver choosing a course doesn't see added value in that.

In some situations they may well be worth it, as rivers pointed out.

And I do have some knowledge of GUE training. I have friends who are GUE instructors, have dived with several GUE divers, have trained in the pool with them and have friends who were at a certain level of diving and went to take Fundamentals and said it had been a waste of money.

 

[Gareth]

But in general they are more expensive than equivalent courses.

Some cars are more expensive than others but generally speaking cars that are virtually identical in quality are a similar price. Out of curiosity, what are the GUE fundamentals equivalent courses you are basing this very definitive statement on? That's a genuine question because I'm not aware of any truly equivalent courses, and am interested to know what other agencies are changing for an identical course to fundies with the same standards of instructor training.

 

[Redshift]

As far as I am aware I don't think there is an equivalent course. It would have to be something like Nitrox plus TDI Intro to Tech, for instance. (Although notice that Intro to Tech is not mandatory to go on to other courses, as Fundamentals is for GUE, which also makes a difference) Can't comment on the instructor training, but I said before that I acknowledge that there is a better certainty of getting a good GUE instructor than in other agencies. One can get these 2 courses significantly cheaper than GUE F, in the UK (quick search showed 219 GBP, and one can get a Deco course also cheaper than Fundamentals). I suspect at lower teaching standards. GUE F for someone without nitrox and wanting to progress is an attractive course (and is now more accessible, both logistically and financially, when there are local instructors). It would become more attractive if there was a way to assess or provide a quick transition to divers who are already trained in decompression / trimix / cave, but who would like to learn more of the GUE way without having to make them take a course from I'd expect many would benefit little.

 

[Gareth]

But in general they are more expensive than equivalent courses.

As far as I am aware I don't think there is an equivalent course.

Thanks for demonstrating the problem.

It's not possible to say one agency courses are more expensive than equivalent courses for another agency, because there is very rarely an equivalent. Your posts exacerbate the problem. You say there's an equivalent, admit there isn't, and then ultimately try to cobble one together with a quick google search to suit your argument that clearly wouldn't be a structured, planned equivalent.

Oh, and there is a way to assess divers without having to go through prior courses. You just jump in the water with an instructor examiner and prove you can do all the skills from the pre-requisite courses to the expected standard with the appropriate attention to detail, and then show that you know all the theory to the required standard as well. Hell you can jump in and go straight to Tech or Cave 2 if you knowledge and skills are up to it.

however, before you rush into it, bear in mind that most of the people that take fundies, never mind tech or cave training, are already technical divers with other agencies, and a remarkable number of them learn they weren't not quite as solid in the water as they thought. The people with a bazillion dives and technical certifications that turn up with something to prove, or convinced the course is somehow below them, generally fail unless they have an epiphany moment during the course and are able to swallow their ego for a few days. I tend to find instructor trainers for other agencies struggle a lot more than PADI rescue divers on fundies.

I get the feeling this will descend into tit for tat, and feel I have passed on my point, so I'm done here.