steel buoyancy

[Bubbletrubble]

I don't know what you consider excellent buoyancy. You said it sinks by itself. That means your BC has way tooooo much weight in it for its amount of lift!!!

I'm in complete agreement with RonFrank's comments in Post #20.
Technically speaking, pir8 is correct...but it doesn't necessarily mean that the OP is overweighted. It appears that the OP has all of his lead connected to his rig. It's not surprising that all of that ballast has exceeded the maximum lift of his BCD. He has not mentioned what BCD he is using...but it probably has more than 30 lbs. of inherent lift (likely closer to 36 lbs. of lift). No big deal really.
The simple solution is to move some lead onto his person...in the form of a weight belt...or better yet a weight harness like the DUI Weight & Trim. As long as he doesn't exceed the positive buoyancy of his exposure suit at the surface, he'll still be positively buoyant once he separates himself from his rig. Then, his BCD will have more than enough lift to float even a full HP120 + some lead in the form of trim weights.
I recommend the OP shift 12 - 16 lbs. of the lead that he used to carry in his BCD ditchable pockets to a weight harness which places the ballast at about the same location trim-wise. This will enable him to maintain proper horizontal trim in the water. Since the 7mm farmer john has more than 16 lbs. of positive buoyancy, he will still be positively buoyant once he separates himself from his rig. With less ballast connected to his rig, the BCD will still have plenty of lift to float itself in the water. Cold water diving demands more exposure protection...which requires more lead. The OP's weighting requirements are within a reasonable range. Still, it would be advisable to do a proper weight-check since our bodies (and wetsuits) can change over time.

Have fun and dive safe...

 

[TMHeimer]

Ron, Bubble, Yeah I understand what you're saying on all these points. All good suggestions and I may look into the harness/drysuit at some point. We're usually 3 winter months in Florida, so I felt no need to go dry for just summer up here. Also, there is the money factor, after that financial market debacle a year ago. So my choices are to do the changes or just don't remove it at the surface, pretty much what I figured.

 

[jhupka]

you need a larger lift wing to keep your rig up.

I dive steel 119 with a BP/W and NO extra weight at all in a dry suit

 

[RonFrank]

The is another option, and that is to get out of that Steel tank. You may still be a bit heavy even with an AL80, but they do weigh less than steel (approx 3~4lbs negative full/positive empty).

 

[Bubbletrubble]

I dive steel 119 with a BP/W and NO extra weight at all in a dry suit

@jhupka: You must be leaving out some critical info about your own setup. A PST or Worthington HP119 tank is -2 lbs. empty, SS BP is -6 lbs., regs + other doodads are -2 lbs. You didn't mention the inherent buoyancy of your drysuit + undergarment. I'd venture a guess that your drysuit system is +20 lbs. buoyant. Something doesn't add up here.
It's possible, I guess, that you don't have a HP119 but rather a Heiser HP120. If that's the case, then, yes, you probably don't need any extra ballast. Those Heiser tanks are ridiculously negatively buoyant! Another possibility is the Faber HP120 which is -7 lbs. empty. Even if you had the Faber HP120, I'd probably guess that you're slightly underweighted.

 

[jhupka]

@jhupka: You must be leaving out some critical info about your own setup. A PST or Worthington HP119 tank is -2 lbs. empty, SS BP is -6 lbs., regs + other doodads are -2 lbs. You didn't mention the inherent buoyancy of your drysuit + undergarment. I'd venture a guess that your drysuit system is +20 lbs. buoyant. Something doesn't add up here.
It's possible, I guess, that you don't have a HP119 but rather a Heiser HP120. If that's the case, then, yes, you probably don't need any extra ballast. Those Heiser tanks are ridiculously negatively buoyant! Another possibility is the Faber HP120 which is -7 lbs. empty. Even if you had the Faber HP120, I'd probably guess that you're slightly underweighted.

I have a pair of worthington 119s, 6 pound bp. DUI TLS 350 dry suit with the 4th element arctic thermals and dive with a 40 cf sling/pony bottle. I actually think I could go down to an AL bp and be ok in fresh water.....I started with about 30 pounds of weight

 

[MaxBottomtime]

But how do you explain my excellent buoyancy and that I rarely add/release BCD air while on the bottom? And what about the buoyancy of my unit by itself at the surface? Also, I have found that some divers on SB with my same body weight, suit etc. use approx. the same weighting as me....I've found that many divers (in person and on SB) use approx. as much weight as me-34 lbs. with a 7 mil)--though most of those use a little less- like 32 pounds. So I may be a little overweight. But isn't 30-34 pounds the norm for such a set-up?

I would think 20 lbs would be closer to the norm. I'm 6'3" and used to dive a Heiser 120 with a 7mm wetsuit and would use no weight at all. With a 95 I used 12 lbs. Most newer divers need more weight because they tend to move their arms a lot and are a bit nervous under water.
I recommend getting in the water with 500 psi in your tank and 20 lbs on your belt. Then add or subtract as much as you need to hover at 15 feet with no air in your BC.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I would think 20 lbs would be closer to the norm. I'm 6'3" and used to dive a Heiser 120 with a 7mm wetsuit and would use no weight at all. With a 95 I used 12 lbs. Most newer divers need more weight because they tend to move their arms a lot and are a bit nervous under water.
I recommend getting in the water with 500 psi in your tank and 20 lbs on your belt. Then add or subtract as much as you need to hover at 15 feet with no air in your BC.

What Max said.
You should be weighted so that at the very end of the dive with a near empty tank you can hold a perfect stop at 15 feet with no air in your BC. This is the key to perfect buoyancy.
When you get to this stage and your rig still can't support itself on the surface then you need to move some weight to a weightbelt and get it off the rig. If a weightbelt get's in the way of the pockets on the rig and that's not an option then you'll need to get a different rig that's not integrated such as a BP/W or other unit that allows room for a weightbelt, or a rig with a bigger bladder. The only problem with a rig with a bigger bladder is that now you have a unit with a huge aircell and more drag just for the purpose of surface floatation.

Steel vs Aluminum doesn't matter because a certain amount of CF of air is going to weigh x amount regardless of tank construction material. Aluminum tanks are lighter underwater so you'll just be making up the difference with weight anyway, so the argument about steel being heavier and not to dive steel wet is assinine because the overall weighting combination is exactly the same regardless.

 

[njedrn]

I weigh 315, in fresh cold water i wear a 7mm farmer john, with 5mm jacket, hood, gloves with a zeagle bcd and 1 alum 80 tank... i use 30lbs when I want to sink in the silt - but usually 26lbs is enough.
When warm salt water diving, I'll dive same setup except just a 3mm full wetsuit and I'll use 20-22lbs. To me it sounds that your a little overweighted. Hope this helps.

 

[drdaddy]

OK, I *think* I understand what you are saying. You have a 14mm farmer John setup, and all your weight is in on the BC/Tank, 20lbs on the BC, plus the tank weight (5~6lbs full/maybe 1~2 empty). Your bladder is likely in the 30lbs range, and when you remove the BC with all the weight on the BC, and steel tank, it sinks even when fully inflated.

IMO there is NOTHING you can do about that other than to remove some weight from the BC -OR- don't remove your BC.

So those are your choices, outside of purchasing a larger bladder.

If it were me, I'd transfer some weight from the BC to the diver (YOU!) but I have no clue how your weight is setup, and if it's a large bar or something, that may be easier said than done. The only option is a weight belt, or system like the DUI weight and trim.

You could get rid of all that neoprene, and than adjust your weight accordingly. 14mm (7mm+7mm) Farmer Johns work fine, but I feel like I'm in a cast with that much neoprene, and you need enough weight to sink a battleship to go down. They require more than my Drysuit to sink, and that is a LOT of lead! Worst of all, at the end of the day.. .you are wet!

There are those that will tell you that diving steels without redundant buoyancy devices is the Devil's work! I'm not in that camp, I think being able to swim the rig up to the surface is more important that ditch weight, or redundant bladders, so can you?

A drysuit is a great investment, and redundant buoyancy is smart. I picked up a used NexGen many years back for around $350, and have well over 150 dives on it. So drysuits don't have to be horribly expensive, and that suit sells around $600~650 NEW, and has proven VERY durable from my experience.

I was about to respond in a like manner, so obviously I agree with the above. And I even agree that you could give a drysuit a try. However, I do love my wetsuit and do not find it confining, and I do a lot of jetty diving that rips stuff up - so I don't want a fancy drysuit or even a new wetsuit. I don't mind the wet and I'm really not that cold in our 48 to 54 degree water. But, I do admit, the 37 degrees experienced at some high altitude lakes makes me only dive on sunny summer days - I can hardly wait to get in the water and I can hardly wait to get out. 2 cylinders of diving is enough for me!!!

I am going to give you my statistics to give you a reference.

I am 5'10, 200 lb, with a bit of a belly, dive every other week (sometimes weekly) all the year around - salt water/jetty dives in the Pacific NW. I dive with a 7mm farmer john, so with the vest around my chest and legs it is 14 mm, so I do understand the buoyancy you are experiencing with your wetsuit. And as I wrote earlier, newer (mine has at least a couple hundred on it) wetsuits are even more buoyant!

My favorite cylinders are steel hp 3442 100s. My BCD (AquaLung/SeaQuest Pro-QD) has 54 lbs of lift (it'll float anything ), but even then I decided to take the non-releasable weights out of my BCD and put them on a weight belt. That leaves me with 20 lbs on the BCD, plus the steel cylinder (and a 13 or 19 cuft pony & reg).

I recently did a buoyancy check with an instructor friend and I am just where I'm suppose to be.

I hope this helps.