Success teaching younger divers????

[jbd]

I don't see that she was cut down. I took the post in the same way pt40fathoms took it and I think in the manner which the author intended--a straight forward matter of fact statement of his thoughts on the subject. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[verrerie]

If I may be so bold as to respond to this post.

If a young person wishes to engage in a conversation that is primarily conducted by adults, then that young person should be treated as an adult. That includes having flaws and errors pointed out, as well as statements such as was made by this young person, responded to as if an adult had made them. To treat them as a child by either ignoring them or heaping false praise would be disingenuous and disrespectful.

I would hope that the parent who had allowed their young one to post, used this as a lesson in temperance of word and humility in action.

Glennj was completely correct in what was pointed out, and it was done in a very dispassionate matter of fact manner, which from all appearances is in contrast to your more personal natured post.

As her Dad I can say she was not cut down. She just thinks you are wrong.
I do think it is easy to mistake enthusiasm for Bravado. The original query in this thread concerned advice regarding the teaching of young people around her age. Who better to know if it works than the child and her teacher.

It is straight scientific fact that in all things (other factors being equal) young people learn faster than older people. If we compare diving with golf, tennis etc we know that world champions invariably started very young. They as sports perhaps dont carry the same potential dangers as diving. However formula 1 grand prix does. The Schumacker boys have been driving and racing from a very young age, (their father owned a go cart track). A popular child sport in europe is junior moto cross where children as young as six race off road motor cycles. Invariably proper training at a young age produces an adult with a higher skill level than one with equal aptitude who starts later.

Diving as a sport is normally only dangerous as a consequence of personal errors. It's your mistake which may injure you rarely random events. Contact sports and competitive motor sports are inherently more dangerous as they require trust in other peoples judgement. It must be said that cycling on a public road is more dangerous than diving within the limits imposed by the training. At least when you dive it is rare that you have to worry about some drunken idiot running you down.

As far as your buddy not being able to provide assistance. Firstly young junior divers must dive with a dive professional or a qualified parent. Therefore the abilities of the buddy are well known and must be taken into account in the dive plan. That is exactly the same way you would plan for diving with a new diver or someone with a disability, or perhaps an older person with reduced strength, or a very small adult it doesn't stop you diving you just take it into account. Contrast that with the number of people who end up partnered with buddies they don't know and whose abilities are a mystery to them. I am happy to dive with my daughter but we plan our dive to her constraints. Surely all dive plans are , or should be made allowing for the constraints of the most limited diver.

My daughter doesn't just want to dive, she is desperate to do further courses. Junior advanced and rescue are next which she can't do until she's 12. She wants to learn, she wants to learn in a proper structured way, that is not exclusively the preserve of young people but at her age she knows she cannot teach herself. (Some adults seem to always know best). She wants to learn because she wants to be good at it, she wants to be good enough to teach as a career.

I know diving is not for everyone but it is not age which is the critical factor. Nobody should qualify unless they can demonstrate the appropriate skills and understanding of the required safety measures and the reasons for them.

Junior divers do not have the same rights as adults. They are more restricted as to depth and 'choice' of buddy. They dont get an easy ride in the qualifying on the open water course. They MUST demonstrate the same skills as an adult. The exam pass mark is the same. The instructor who signs them off must be sure they are safe, remember that instructors name and no sits on the divers cert card for all to see.

I would say in closing that keep an open mind. It is not the age which is relevant it is the ability to learn and practice safe diving skills.

 

[Bretagne]

Verrerie,
I see that you are living in Bretagne. It is a great place for diving. But I suppose that you know that there are diving laws in france, and that if you use the services of a club or commercial structure, the qualification of the qualified parent are requested to be relatively high? (French N4 or BEES1, foreign CMAS P***, some other possibilities but PADI qualifications are unfortunately not recognised, nevertheless it would be DM minimum if law changes). And this, up to 18.

 

[pt40fathoms]

Verrerie,
I see that you are living in Bretagne. It is a great place for diving. But I suppose that you know that there are diving laws in france, and that if you use the services of a club or commercial structure, the qualification of the qualified parent are requested to be relatively high? (French N4 or BEES1, foreign CMAS P***, some other possibilities but PADI qualifications are unfortunately not recognised, nevertheless it would be DM minimum if law changes). And this, up to 18.

It never fails to amaze me how politicians and bureaucrats tend to mess up just about anything they get involved in. The non-recognition of PADI qualifications is purely politically motivated. It’s a sad shame really, I would have liked to have visited France and do a little diving there. However, in the eyes of the local authorities, I am not qualified or I have to prove to them that I am. Neither sits well with me, so I will just have to visit England instead.

Sorry for being a little off topic at first here, just a little rant is all it is.

As for children and diving, as I stated earlier, I am enthusiastically in favour of parents and children diving within the accepted limits. The memories will last a lifetime, and the smiles on both parents and childrens faces make it all worthwhile. Too many parents loose out to video games and poor role models in the entertainment world. This at least gives them quality one on one time that is needed with their children, and helps offset the less desirable distractions their children face every day. The children who do dive should be proud of their accomplishment, and when in school I’m certain that their classmates are more than a little jealous of this.

 

[ChrisA]

Not many 10 year olds can pass the OW class. First off most can't read the PADI OW book and answer all the querstions. The book is not written at the 5th grade level. But then Some 10 year olds could do it. It Sounds like she would do well in the water. What stops some 10 year old kids is the skill where they have to remove/replace the equipment in the water. Here in the land of chilly water we use a ton of lead and the gear is heavy. In tropical locations smaller kids might do better. BUt here is So. Cal not many smaller kids can carry a tank and all the lead needed to sink a 7mm suit through (for them) chest high surf
But still If she is very good in the water and at school she could likely pass

But, the big question is YOU experianced enough to supervise a 10 year old? I'd think you'd want your skills at or close to the professional level You certainly would not let your 10 year old daughter dive with a beginning OW diver, If that describes you, wait a while.

My son is 13. I told him he could take the OW class if and when he finishes reading the PADI OW book and answers all th questions. This has effectivly stopped him. to a 13 year old reading a 200+ page book takes to much time away from the video games. So I figure he'll be 15 or so before he gets certified. I'll wait until he is 100% self-motivated. By then maybe I'll have finishd divemaster training.

Saying "you have to read the book THEN you can take the class is a good way to not have to say "no".

Hello all, I have a question I really need help with. My daughter will be 11 in March and was considering getting her into a OW class. A PADI instuctor told me they teach kids at 10 yrs. old. Now to give yo a brief description of my daughter; she is VERY inquisitive about my diving and dive gear. In our home pool she has begged me to try out the gear and breathe off of the regulators. She can also snorkel very well. At the end of Aug I was diving Ginnie springs In Fla. (GREAT DIVE !!) After I had went down to a depth of a bout 20-25 feet I was checking my gear before continuing the dive and the little brat snorkeled down and poked me in the head. Scared the Stuff out of me :11: . She was hanging above me smiling and waving. It would be great to have someone in the family to dive with especially her (I delivered her :07; but I just wondered if she could really do it? I would hate to spend the $200+ to get her hopes up and then she fails. She really wants to do it BAD!!!The PADI instructor also said that they have had great experience with that age. I just don't know :06: Has anyone here had any experiences with teaching kids this young. How do they do with the tables?? PADI instructor says that they can go to 60 feet with adult diver. Her b-day is in March and it would be a present from me. Just having second thoughts. Was going to get her into a indoor/pool this winter to get her ready for the swim test and all. If you think she can do it I have the perfect place to get her certified. It is called Lake Rawlings in Va. VERY clear FRESH water. Need your help gang :06:
WYDOIN

 

[Bretagne]

It never fails to amaze me how politicians and bureaucrats tend to mess up just about anything they get involved in. The non-recognition of PADI qualifications is purely politically motivated. It’s a sad shame really, I would have liked to have visited France and do a little diving there. However, in the eyes of the local authorities, I am not qualified or I have to prove to them that I am. Neither sits well with me, so I will just have to visit England instead.

Sorry for being a little off topic at first here, just a little rant is all it is.

I agree with you that it is stupid and politically motivated. It is slowly changing (for example, there are simplifications to get a qualification under one system is you are already qualified with the other system) but not fast enough to my taste.
You do not have to prove yourself qualified to the authorities, only to the diving structure were you want to go. They have the freedom to decide if you are qualified or not. Some are intelligent enough to take into account the PADI qualifications, some are not.
Nevertheless, even if a given structure recognise the PADI qualification, they would integrate yourself in the French system. And I seriously doubt that they would accept a DM as strictly equivalent to a N4 for supervision of divers who are not allowed to dive in autonomy. The same way, I doubt that they would allow an OW to be autonomous.

 

[voop]

Bretagne is right. A PADI DM is *not* considred as a N4 in France -- at least not by any structures that I know of.

The french diving federation (FFESSM) effectively made so much noise that due to political preasure, one relatively "fair" equivalence between DM an N4 (through SNMP - a pro dive instructors agency in France) was shot down.

 

[adurso]

My daughter was certified at age ten, she is now eleven and has logged almost fifty dives, ranging from Lake Rawlings to the Gulf of Mexico, including Devils Den and several other springs. YOU must make the decision as to the maturity and ability of your daughter. Someone pointed out that you will essentially be diving solo as you pay attention to your daughter in the water, this is true, you will not be able to relax until your daughter is older and more experienced. But this is a small price to pay when you see the joy of discovery light up your daughter's face as the underwater world unfolds.

 

[amazingbiologirl]

let her dive!! im 15 and im in the process of gettin my certification!! my best friend is 15 too and he just got his and he loves it! it teaches kids a lot of responsibility at a young age! and its so fun! just make sure shes safe and itll be all good!! good luck!

 

[Lightning Fish]

let her dive!! im 15 and im in the process of gettin my certification!! my best friend is 15 too and he just got his and he loves it! it teaches kids a lot of responsibility at a young age! and its so fun! just make sure shes safe and itll be all good!! good luck!

Why can't she make sure that she, herself, is safe? I think that is part of the argument through this thread. If you are going to dive, you have to be self-reliant and able to contribute equally to the dive team.

So far, in the argument to let kids dive, I like parts of post # 82: "Therefore the abilities of the buddy are well known and must be taken into account in the dive plan."

Bill.