Switching from Jacket bcd to Backplate/Wing??

[Jim Lapenta]

Little side note. One reason that agencies tell divers to use the drysuit over the bc underwater for buoyancy is that again they are taking what they assume to be the lowest common denominator intelligence wise. They think managing two sources of buoyancy control to be too difficult. Insulting to most people but what I was told in my PADI drysuit class.

 

[BDSC]

That said, a backplate and wing is superior in every way to any of these BCs. It's more streamlined, more rugged, more customizable, and more simple. Backplates and wings can also handle doubles, stages, and even rebreathers, which none of the above is equipped for.

Here is the problem with so many of these types of threads. Folks make statements like the above and make it seem as it's a fact when it's nothing more than opinion. I've dove jackets, back inflates, and BP/W's and in no way is a BP/W more rugged than the Scubapro Classic Plus. I have hundreds of dives on one and in various conditions and it still looks brand new. Not a rip, tear, or loose thread anywhere. And then some statements are just flat out false. The Scubapro Classic Plus can easily handle doubles. My instructor has been diving doubles on one for years.

 

[Deep South Divers]

A SeaQuest Black Diamond can also handle doubles... Another of the BCs that I mentioned.

Can they handle a rebreather? Stages? How does your buddy clip stages off to his Classic Plus? How does he handle doubles, two stages (since there's nowhere to clip them) and a scooter (since there's no crotch strap on the Classic Plus and therefore no scootering ring)? How does he customize the rig to include an additional D-ring where he wants it, or get rid of extra hardware that he doesn't? What if he wants to use a canister light? Where does that go on a Scubapro Classic?

...But you focused on the "durability" comment I made and not the "customizability" part of my comment... The Classic is no more or less durable than any other BC made of nylon and plastic buckles and velcro. No BC, however, is going to hold up as well as a simple stainless steel plate. The weakest part of a bp/wing is the webbing, which is the most durable part of any "off the shelf" BC. With a backplate and wing, the webbing can be replaced for about $15. With a BC... Well... You're stuck with buying a new one when the webbing wears out, which will be long after the rest of it wears out.

The "wing" part of a bp/wing is generally made of cordura or some similar rugged fabric... The same as the priciest of BCs. However, when a wing wears out, you can simply replace it - or whatever part needs to be replaced (we usually just replace the inner bladders if they get holed). With a BC, again, you've got to replace the whole thing to achieve the same results.

Those aren't opinions... They're facts.

 

[gcarter]

A SeaQuest Black Diamond can also handle doubles... Another of the BCs that I mentioned.

Can they handle a rebreather? Stages? How does your buddy clip stages off to his Classic Plus? How does he handle doubles, two stages (since there's nowhere to clip them) and a scooter (since there's no crotch strap on the Classic Plus and therefore no scootering ring)? How does he customize the rig to include an additional D-ring where he wants it, or get rid of extra hardware that he doesn't? What if he wants to use a canister light? Where does that go on a Scubapro Classic?

...But you focused on the "durability" comment I made and not the "customizability" part of my comment... The Classic is no more or less durable than any other BC made of nylon and plastic buckles and velcro. No BC, however, is going to hold up as well as a simple stainless steel plate. The weakest part of a bp/wing is the webbing, which is the most durable part of any "off the shelf" BC. With a backplate and wing, the webbing can be replaced for about $15. With a BC... Well... You're stuck with buying a new one when the webbing wears out, which will be long after the rest of it wears out.

The "wing" part of a bp/wing is generally made of cordura or some similar rugged fabric... The same as the priciest of BCs. However, when a wing wears out, you can simply replace it - or whatever part needs to be replaced (we usually just replace the inner bladders if they get holed). With a BC, again, you've got to replace the whole thing to achieve the same results.

Those aren't opinions... They're facts.

Better is situational and contextual. Everyone's needs are uniquely theirs, their context slightly different. Many (most?) divers have fairly simple needs to satisfy. Tech, cave, deco, scooters, canister lights, rebreathers, stage bottles, even doubles - I would wager that a significantly higher number of divers are in the "don't" camp than are in the "do" camp.

Facts about benefits do not speak to better. Better is what is right for that particular diver, for his or her context, for his or her budget, for his or her experience, for his or her future diving aspirations. When balancing the equation some of the benefits quickly fall away because they are irrelevant or not cost justified or some other reason.

Superiour is in the eyes of the beholder. It IS opinion, it is NOT fact.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Better is situational and contextual. Everyone's needs are uniquely theirs, their context slightly different.

Sure. For those that want to spend more money on something that is less repairable, doesn't last as long, is less streamlined, offers less customizing options and makes obtaining correct trim and stability underwater more difficult, I would recommend something OTHER than a backplate and wing.

Many (most?) divers have fairly simple needs to satisfy. Tech, cave, deco, scooters, canister lights, rebreathers, stage bottles, even doubles - I would wager that a significantly higher number of divers are in the "don't" camp than are in the "do" camp.

Agreed, but I suspect that the problem isn't that these people don't want to try out a canister light or fly a scooter or stay longer, deeper, in a place less explored... It's that they see it as a huge step... A radical departure from what they were trained to do. They see that doing dives like what you're mentioning requires a lot more expense, diligence, training, and money and effort than they're willing to put into their hobby... And that's simply not true.

Well, it's true if they just spent $600 on a BC that is only good for one "type" of diving. It's easy for them to assume, then, that they're gonna need to spend ANOTHER $600-plus for a DIFFERENT "type" of BC for their DIFFERENT "type" of diving.

Add all the different "types" of diving - according to your definitions - and you could quickly go broke buying all of the different "types" of gear - and never even have a single dollar to go diving on.

That's why real "tech" divers don't use the word "tech" - it's because there really IS no difference between "recreational" and "technical" diving. It's all the same. All of the same basic rules still apply. Sure, the basics are expanded on, but they're still the same basic rules. It's not like one set of rules apply to one "type" of diving, while they don't apply in another "type" of diving. Of course, you won't see that until you've become "tech" - it's the "recreational" divers that have created the term, not those standing on the "tech" side of the fence.

...But relative to backplates and wings, why not use them in "rec" diving too? If they work for both, then won't that make the transition seamless and easy? I mean, if you were to ever want to... A backplate and wing still provides a slimmer, better trimmed profile in a package that's more customizable and for less money on a 30-foot reef dive, too. You don't have to take it to 300' to enjoy those benefits... Although you might find yourself gravitating toward that when you realize that there's nothing stopping you from doing it. Amazing things happen when you're totally comfortable and balanced in the rig that's built exactly as you want it and all of your gear works properly.

...Or maybe not. It's up to you. The benefits of proper trim and stability and buoyancy in a totally customizable package that lasts for thousands of dives are apparent even in 10' of water... ESPECIALLY in 10' of water. That's why we practice for "game day dives" in 10' of water.

Facts about benefits do not speak to better. Better is what is right for that particular diver, for his or her context, for his or her budget, for his or her experience, for his or her future diving aspirations. When balancing the equation some of the benefits quickly fall away because they are irrelevant or not cost justified or some other reason.

Superiour is in the eyes of the beholder. It IS opinion, it is NOT fact.

True. Okay, I gave a bunch of FACTS as to why I have the OPINION that backplates and wings are "superior." You're welcome to have a differing opinion. I might be more empathetic if you had listed FACTS supporting your OPINION. What does a ScubaPro Classic Plus do for a diver that a backplate and wing doesn't?

...Not that it really matters. Look at the title of this thread... The OP was curious about switching from a jacket BC into a backplate and wing. I gave him some of the reasons why someone might want to do that, and some FACTS that most people, including myself, consider benefits. I also gave him some recommendations regarding configuration and such. If you'd like to argue that poodle jackets are better, then feel free... But you might want to do it in another thread - it would be off-topic here.

 

[BDSC]

Here is your statement.

Backplates and wings can also handle doubles, stages, and even rebreathers, which none of the above is equipped for.

The "above" included a Scubapro Classic Plus. A Scubapro Classic Plus can easily be fitted for doubles. That is a fact. Therefore your statement is simply not true. You lose credibility when you make such statements.

A SeaQuest Black Diamond can also handle doubles... Another of the BCs that I mentioned.

I thought you mentioned the Balance and not the Black Diamond in that post. Do you even remember?

Those aren't opinions... They're facts.

Right.

 

[Deep South Divers]

I don't have to remember... I can go back and read it.

And no, I didn't mention the Balance... But I didn't mention the Black Diamond either. I mentioned the Raider, which is a type of backplate and wing. What I meant when I was writing it was, "Black Diamond," because that is actually a BC capable of using doubles... Just like your Classic. There are only a handful on the market with this capability.

You're reading my statement as, "[These BCs] can not handle doubles, can not handle stages, and can not handle rebreathers." What I wrote was that "[These BCs] can not handle doubles AND stages AND rebreathers." Does your Classic have 11" bolt centers? I honestly don't know... But if it doesn't, then it can't handle many rebreathers on the market. Can you clip a stage bottle to it? If not, then it fails to match the criteria in my statement and my statement is true.

I am fully aware that you can put a set of doubles on your Classic... Although I don't know why anyone would do that if there is no stabilizing backplate in the BC to support them. No, the plastic framework thingie doesn't count.

Anyway, I am aware that you can hook doubles to it... I am now, and I was when I wrote the statement. Can you hook stages to it or use it as the BCD for your rebreather? If not, then it fails the criteria I outlined and my statement is true.

I still don't see the point of this... What if your Classic DID work for doubles, stages and rebreathers? What if it did have a crotch strap and a scootering ring and a special circumstance for a canister light? It doesn't - which is why I brought up some of the advantages of a backplate and wing, in line with the topic of this thread - but if it did, your argument would still be off-topic.

The topic is "Switching from a Jacket BCD to a Wing." If you have something to add, please do. Subjects of interest might be suggestions on where to buy, how to rig, what brands to buy, what you can and can't do with a backplate and wing, how the diving may be different, etc. Arguing that your Classic is "just as good" so long as you don't try to use a can light, don't want the stability of a backplate, don't want the ability to change wing sizes and lift capacities for differing situations, et al... Is pointless.

 

[gcarter]

Sure. For those that want to spend more money on something that is less repairable, doesn't last as long, is less streamlined, offers less customizing options and makes obtaining correct trim and stability underwater more difficult, I would recommend something OTHER than a backplate and wing.



Agreed, but I suspect that the problem isn't that these people don't want to try out a canister light or fly a scooter or stay longer, deeper, in a place less explored... It's that they see it as a huge step... A radical departure from what they were trained to do. They see that doing dives like what you're mentioning requires a lot more expense, diligence, training, and money and effort than they're willing to put into their hobby... And that's simply not true.

Well, it's true if they just spent $600 on a BC that is only good for one "type" of diving. It's easy for them to assume, then, that they're gonna need to spend ANOTHER $600-plus for a DIFFERENT "type" of BC for their DIFFERENT "type" of diving.

Add all the different "types" of diving - according to your definitions - and you could quickly go broke buying all of the different "types" of gear - and never even have a single dollar to go diving on.

That's why real "tech" divers don't use the word "tech" - it's because there really IS no difference between "recreational" and "technical" diving. It's all the same. All of the same basic rules still apply. Sure, the basics are expanded on, but they're still the same basic rules. It's not like one set of rules apply to one "type" of diving, while they don't apply in another "type" of diving. Of course, you won't see that until you've become "tech" - it's the "recreational" divers that have created the term, not those standing on the "tech" side of the fence.

...But relative to backplates and wings, why not use them in "rec" diving too? If they work for both, then won't that make the transition seamless and easy? I mean, if you were to ever want to... A backplate and wing still provides a slimmer, better trimmed profile in a package that's more customizable and for less money on a 30-foot reef dive, too. You don't have to take it to 300' to enjoy those benefits... Although you might find yourself gravitating toward that when you realize that there's nothing stopping you from doing it. Amazing things happen when you're totally comfortable and balanced in the rig that's built exactly as you want it and all of your gear works properly.

...Or maybe not. It's up to you. The benefits of proper trim and stability and buoyancy in a totally customizable package that lasts for thousands of dives are apparent even in 10' of water... ESPECIALLY in 10' of water. That's why we practice for "game day dives" in 10' of water.



True. Okay, I gave a bunch of FACTS as to why I have the OPINION that backplates and wings are "superior." You're welcome to have a differing opinion. I might be more empathetic if you had listed FACTS supporting your OPINION. What does a ScubaPro Classic Plus do for a diver that a backplate and wing doesn't?

...Not that it really matters. Look at the title of this thread... The OP was curious about switching from a jacket BC into a backplate and wing. I gave him some of the reasons why someone might want to do that, and some FACTS that most people, including myself, consider benefits. I also gave him some recommendations regarding configuration and such. If you'd like to argue that poodle jackets are better, then feel free... But you might want to do it in another thread - it would be off-topic here.

I am not saying that BPW isn't often a better choice - quite frankly IMO most BCDs are way overpriced for what you get. But by the time you fully customize your BPW (that's a benefit, right?) from what I have seen online, it is pretty darn easy to match or exceed the price of many popular BCDs. So even pricing isn't always a benefit ESPECIALLY if you want or need local support. This is an area where the cost / benefit balance is not always so easy to judge from an internet vantage; you really need to understand local conditions.

I have a SeaQuest Balance that I am quite happy with. Cost ~ $525. There is nothing in my future diving plans that requires anything this BCD doesn't already provide (of course I am leaving the cool and toy factors out of this ). I was in my LDS yesterday looking at potential BPW for my son. What I was being shown started at $599. Before customization. We may not buy from the LDS, we may be able to get the price down, who knows. We are going to get him a BPW though, it makes a bit more sense for him given what he says about where he wants to take his diving.

But it isn't fair - or defensible IMO - to make categorical statements that the benefits always make it better. That is a value judgment on your part, whether you wish to admit it or not, and regardless of how strongly you feel on the issue.

 

[BDSC]

And no, I didn't mention the Balance...

Must have misread the statement below. My mistake.

The Knighthawk is a great BC. I'm also a fan of the Scubapro Classic Plus and the SeaQuest Balance and Raider.

 

[ermaclob]

What does a ScubaPro Classic Plus do for a diver that a backplate and wing doesn't?

not that ive had any experience with ether of these. but the general argument does seem valid... the very reason i desided to switch was because i felt that my jacket BC was not up to the challenge of the things i wanted to do (or at lease it seems that way to me), and there is nothing that i can really do to it from a simplistic stand point to change it. i just wanted to get something that was all round solution for mostly any of the things i could possibly want to do with a bc. the BP/W just seemed like the proper choice.

and besides for some one new, i would, think that spending money on a Basic bcd like mine (Example) and then have to switch later would be a waist. opposed to just getting a Bp/W that works for anything.

thank fully for me my jacket was a $40 steal from ebay. but i pity anyone how comes to this realization later after buying a new BCD.

im not saying that there arent some normal bcds that cant be more versatile then most.