Taking Dive classes to learn, should i go with master diver or dive master

[MXGratefulDiver]

Lamont took Fundies with 20 dives. I don't remember if he passed it, but he doesn't regret having done it.

I was one of his dive buddies. I had over 900 dives at the time. Neither of us passed ... all six people in that class got provisionals. To my concern, Lamont did better than me ... he had fewer bad habits to unlearn. Both of us got subsequent passes from a different instructor ...

I would not recommend the OP run out and jump into a class, but GUE Primer would be totally appropriate, and probably a very good way to jumpstart her diving skills.

It's really going to depend on the student. A fair number of my AOW grads go on to take Fundies fairly soon after the AOW class. Some do better than others. Several have expressed an interest and I've encouraged them to get in more diving first. Some students learn faster than others, for quite a variety of reasons. You really can't know without seeing them in the water whether they'll benefit from the class yet, or whether they should get more dives in before attempting it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TN-Steve]

As a freshly hatched AOW your post is what I've observed. Perhaps they need a new certification level "Underwater Tourist". They are able to swim / flail underwater as long as they have responsible adult supervision.

I'm trying to learn to be a diver, rescue is on my list, along with deep and nitrox. Probably solo at some point, not because I want to dive alone, but if my buddy wanders off, is useless, out any of a thousand other reasons, I'm always responsible for me and my safety. That's why.

Let me give you an example of two things that can happen after you are certified.

1. I have had a number of students tell me during the OW class that their friends who were already divers, and with whom they were planning to dive, told them that all the dive planning information in the class could be tossed out the window as soon as they are certified. "In the real world of diving," they were told, all of that is done by the DM. All you have to do is follow the DM on the dives. I am sure many people have done hundreds of dives like that. They have forgotten how to set up their gear, because the DMs do it. They don't have to plan depths, times, etc. The DM reminds them when they need to check their SPGs, and the DM tells them when it is time to ascend.

2. Divers can instead go out and do shore and boat dives with skilled buddies in areas that do not put DMs in the water. They will need to do all the planning themselves, using what they learned in their classes and what they can glean from their buddies.

Questions:

1. How will those two sets of divers compare after 100 dives?

2. Which of those two choices do you have in mind when you tell people to just go diving for a while so that they can improve?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

As a freshly hatched AOW your post is what I've observed. Perhaps they need a new certification level "Underwater Tourist". They are able to swim / flail underwater as long as they have responsible adult supervision.

I'm trying to learn to be a diver, rescue is on my list, along with deep and nitrox. Probably solo at some point, not because I want to dive alone, but if my buddy wanders off, is useless, out any of a thousand other reasons, I'm always responsible for me and my safety. That's why.

Cheng has always referred to herself as an underwater tourist. She has no interest in tech diving, or DIR, or any of what she calls "fancy stuff". She just wants to go diving and take pictures of marine life. She's coming up on 1000 dives, and is a pretty solid diver ... as long as you don't ask her to do anything fancy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[randytay]

I just got OW certified in april and AOW last week. I am in school for accounting and don't plan on ever using my dive training to make a living. I am a detail oriented person that is curious by nature and love to get into the meat of what I am into and want to know as much as i can about diving. I know that having the certification is just a piece of paper and it matters more what you learn. with that being said, I don't know whether I should go for a master diver certification or dive master certification. one of the instructors with the dive shop I go through said I should just go for the dive master training because it would let me work, but I want to know if the information I learn is worth the price and time. Like i said, i don't plan on using it to make a living. Also, the dive shop offers master diver certification for $2500. it includes AOW, rescue, emergency, five specialties, three boat charters and/or springs entrance fees, and the application. Is this a reasonable price?

If you want to take a class that lets your learn... heehee...

[video=youtube_share;qY0KTHeT6Bk]http://youtu.be/qY0KTHeT6Bk[/video]

 

[live&dive]

As everyone else said, "Dive, dive, dive....."!

 

[kayakguy]

So what I see here is pretty typical when it comes to getting master diver. Just dive. But it really isn't that easy and simple when you look at the big picture.

First: master diver is the top rating for a non professional diver in the Padi system. It takes advanced, rescue and five specialties. Now some of you think this is ridiculous to get specialties. So I will ask the OP and anyone else thinking about master diver to think about 5 specialties...

Underwater Navigation...how skilled are you honestly at using navigation? How many kicks are in your 100'cycle?

Fish ID: could you do this on your own? Of course but you would need to study and that is exactly what this is...

Search and recovery: Have you ever used a lift bag? Do you know how?

Nitrox: very beneficial and the information learned is vital.

Peak performance buoyancy: how many experienced divers have we all seen walking on the reef? They could sure use this class.

Yes there are things to be learned and why not get recognition from your work. But wait a minute...

The classes are only as good as the instructor. And we have all seen these classes shortchanged. Instructors have a real responsibility to teach these classes to a high standard. When they are not the cards become cheap in what they signify.

However the dive community as a whole is selling out our sport. We are not supporting this continued education because "I didn't need it" and in the same breath blasting all of the poor divers that these classes with a good instructor could have been helped. And then when our local shop closes its doors because they can't compete with the online retailers and the continuing education is not a consideration, well, have fun getting fills and forget hanging out and talking diving.

So the next time you further education naysayers want to say something about another diver with poor skills, please keep it to yourself. Because that is an individual that might have been helped with these classes and a good instructor.

Furthermore, other than the costs can you tell me one disadvantage someone has in taking these classes? It is their money and if they want that head start to build experience from then I don't blame them. I am certainly not one to downplay their choice to practice and learn more about their hobby.

And now the disclosure...I am currently in my PADI IDC and will be taking the instructor exam in a few weeks. So yes, I am a bit biased. But it truly is not because I have a personal gain in this, but rather I see a bigger picture of keeping our industry healthy. I also understand that not everyone is born with expert level diving skills like so many of the folks on scuba board apparently are. These folks want a person who's job is to show them the ropes.

The courses are not a replacement for experience, nor are they meant to be. Yes, they can get this knowledge from their experienced buddies in time...when they finally get those dives together like they have been talking about forever...and I am sure their buddy still remembers things like partial pressures, I mean he did a dive a couple years ago.

OP, you probably need some dives just for experience. However, I suggest you make your or decisions on the value of the courses. They can be a leg up if you decide you want to learn from them. I know one thing for sure, every time I think I know everything I crack open a book or talk to another diver and find out just how wrong I am.

 

[mrdre]

kayakguy, the argument is not about the skills themselves. More skills you learn - better. It's about rushing through all these certifications without having any experience. A person gets OW, now the school sells all the classes all the way to DM, but the person is barely repeating after the instructor and very often the instructor would say "ah, fine, let's move on". The result - the diver has a lot of cool and shiny cards, but he/she can't even do required OW skills in a real world situation.

I've dove a lot with folks like that. A guy was getting a rescue cert, yet he couldn't enter and exit water with 3' waves. We had to drag him in and out every single time. I've seen DMs who started diving 4-5 months ago. Well.. they can swim underwater, for sure, but won't be able to deploy SMB. Why spend extra money? If it's "just to support the industry", then why not just donate that money to the dive shop?

The right way would be

. Get OW
. Have 20-40 dives (in quarter of them - practicing the skills you learned in OW)
. Get AOW (and possibly Nitrox)
. Have 80-100 dives (practice the skills)
. Get rescue cert
. Have 100-200 dives
. Only then try to go to DM (if you need it)

This way the diver will be gradually building the skills and receiving all corresponding "certificates". Obviously any dive shop would not like that, because you may take the next class somewhere else. Maybe you will learn "fish id" BS skills yourself and you will be more knowledgable and will request to teach you some more sophisticated navigation skills. Maybe you will even realize that the instructor even can't do it

Of course it's hard at the beginning to find dive buddies (and better - experienced), but that's the forums are for, dive trips. You gradually meet more and more people. Eventually it becomes non-issue at all.

 

[scubadada]

Master Diver certification means nothing and the training to get it is minimal.

Dive Master is a professional certification. If you have zero interest in making a living or making money off diving then don't bother.

You can get all sorts of good training without having a "certification" or "title".

Master Diver does not mean nothing, it means you did OW, AOW, Rescue, and 5 specialties. This is not "minimal". Perhaps finfalman has exceeded this requirement, who knows. Diving experience also counts, many of us have that over finfalman also. Why criticize others training paths?

 

[TMHeimer]

My same old views:

Scubadada: Agree. Also, PADI MSD's value depends on which "core" specialties you do. Ones that don't relate to safety or diving efficiency shouldn't count-- IMHO.

mrdre: Agree with most you say except waiting to complete 80-100 dives before doing Rescue. I did it with 26. Did OK, not great, but I now had the knowledge. And as you say, I did have trouble at first finding ANY buddy, let alone an experienced one with Rescue cert. or knowledge (due to my location--I now dive solo almost always). Two newbies without Rescue buddying up to me is a red light--whether they dive in "conditions similar to or better than those they were trained in" or not.

 

[mikeycanuk]

We got our MSD last week after finishing rescue. Our problem is EVERYONE passes. One guy during our rescue was an overly excited/nervous panicky type who I would never want to dive with. Not to mention he showed up 1 hour late then came back hours later after leaving to fix equipment issues. I finally figured out I was dead and went upright after minutes of waiting for him to remove my gear during a drill. He was so freaked out and almost hyperventilating. Besides my neck was aching keeping my head above water for too long. Our instructor did some more drills with him at the end but I hope he never has to actually rescue anyone.

Last year during our AOW a DM in training was, I learned this year, supposed to HELP the instructor. Ha! Twice he ended up wide eyed and OOA on the instructors octo...within under 15 mins. He also showed up late too. I can guarantee he got his DM. Reminds me of forklift training I had to take after an incident. The certs were filled out half way during the class.

Looking at GUE or something along those lines when junior turns 16. PADI does the bare minimum. Even the MSD got watered down. I remember deep, nav and peak were required. I don't think so anymore.

The swimming requirements of GUE does worry me. The hardest part off all my diver training was the 5 or 10 minutes of treading water. I'm negative as hell, built for strength and too lean. The overweight couple were just sitting there bobbing in the water while I struggled like mad to keep my head above water.


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