The Fling vs divers with special needs

[SCUBASailor]

I have back problems which prevent me from wearing BC and tanks while I climb the ladder after the dive, so I let my dive buddy board before me and hand my tanks off to him/her before climbing the ladder myself.

I intended to dive the Flower Garden Banks earlier this year aboard the Fling. My LDS had told me that the Fling had always said they welcomed divers with special needs. Upon checking, though, the captain of the Fling would not allow me to hand my gear to anyone on board. My dive buddy would have to board the boat, doff his/her gear, jump back in the water, don my gear and wear it up the ladder.

I am trying to understand how this in any way is "accommodating". If they will deny such a simple thing, why do they continually claim to accommodate divers with special needs?

I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I have the feeling they just don't want special needs divers on their boat. If anyone out there can justify their policy, I'd like to hear it.

 

[Wookie]

The Fling operates in a place well known for its arduous boarding conditions and high currents. I no longer speak for the management of the Fling, but I'll tell you the reasoning when the rule was made.

One of our divemasters was assisting a person with a bad back by grabbing the doffed BCD while kneeling on the platform and leaning over the back of the platform to grab the tank valve once the diver had shucked the BCD. The BCD was weight integrated. The boat heaved up, dislocating the shoulder of the DM and tearing the tendons and rotator cuff. That act of kindness to the customer cost in direct costs to the Fling many thousands of dollars in medical costs as well as the goodwill of all customers on the boat because the CG would not evacuate the injured crewmember (it wasn't an emergency) so the boat had to return the injured crewmember to shore. Remember, the Fling is a Jones Act vessel, therefore any injury to a crewmember is the responsibility of the vessel to repair to the crewmembers satisfaction. If the injury cannot be repaired, the vessel is responsible for the lost wages for the seaman for the rest of his life. Obviously, the insurance company would negotiate a settlement.

I can speak to the policy on the Spree, and it states very clearly in our terms and conditions: If you are physically incapable of getting off the boat by 6 foot giant stride or getting back on the boat by climbing the ladder in full gear, we aren't the charter for you. It's not just the giant stride and boarding, it is also the chances you might re-injure your back in rough seas, causing us to have to bring the boat home to get your injury looked after, and affecting every other diver on the charter.

It costs a tremendous amount of money to operate a dive boat in the United States when compared to a foreign flagged vessel. Jones Act requirements, minimum wages for government charters, maintaining Coast Guard safety standards, and also keeping the boat in a condition acceptable to passengers is probably 50% of my cost of doing business. It's all part of your government keeping you safe on the high seas.

 

[redacted]

Your proposal may be quite doable in calm seas. But have you ever tried swapping out your gear like that in 5 to 6 ft seas? How were you planning on getting into the water with all your gear in rough seas? I don't think I would want to try approaching and riding that boarding ladder in rough seas without scuba.

 

[scubafanatic]

...not to sound harsh, but the Flower Gardens are definitely NOT a location suitable for a special needs diver...there are MANY activities/professions where it's common sense to impose minimum physical standards on the participants, and if you've ever actually done FG under less than optimum conditions, you'd understand.

 

[SCUBASailor]

No, I've never been to the Flower Gardens. That's one of the reasons I am so disappointed.

The Fling's policy may be well warranted, but it just seems misleading that they claim to be able to meet the needs of special needs divers if in fact they can not. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to point out some misinformation, I guess.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'll have to enjoy the Flower Gardens through other people's photos.

 

[redacted]

Just out of curiosity, how is your back able to handle the BCD with tank pre-dive? I too have occasional back problems, some pain but nothing severe or debilitating. The ladder doesn't much bother me. I have a harder time gearing up, shuffling to the gate area, and donning fins to enter the water than I have exiting the water and doffing gear. For that matter, I have a harder time trying to get into my gear in a rocking 6-pack in Cozumel than I tend to have at FGB.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

One of our divemasters was assisting a person with a bad back by grabbing the doffed BCD ... The boat heaved up, dislocating the shoulder of the DM ...the Fling is a Jones Act vessel, therefore any injury to a crewmember is the responsibility of the vessel to repair to the crewmembers satisfaction.

I can understand that, considering your liability to the crewmembers on a JA vessel. I notice though, that the Fling also would not let a dive buddy help with the gear. (This is not to question your policies on your vessel; but just wondering if the JA would apply to a non-crewmember injury?)

A related question: Do sidemount divers always board the vessel with both tanks "donned"? I was thinking that one (or both?) tanks might sometimes be doffed prior to boarding, but I don't know for sure as I have never dived sidemount.

This thread caught my attention because for about a year I was handing my rig up to the boat before climbing the ladder due to a case of quadriceps tendinitis. In my case, I *could* have climbed the ladder if there had been a dire reason to do so; it just would have resulted in a "backsliding" of my healing tendinitis.

A couple of times in slightly rough seas we chose for me to doff my gear and secure it to the tag line, and then pull it into the boat after I boarded. This had a few advantages over just handing it up from the water in the vicinity of the transom.

Obviously Flower Gardens may be a whole 'nother ballgame; I've not dived there.

 

[SCUBASailor]

Just out of curiosity, how is your back able to handle the BCD with tank pre-dive? I too have occasional back problems, some pain but nothing severe or debilitating. The ladder doesn't much bother me. I have a harder time gearing up, shuffling to the gate area, and donning fins to enter the water than I have exiting the water and doffing gear. For that matter, I have a harder time trying to get into my gear in a rocking 6-pack in Cozumel than I tend to have at FGB.

Before entering the water, I can walk with my torso angled down a bit which diverts a lot of the direct downward pressure from my spine. I don my BC as close to the entry point as possible and move very carefully on deck, usually with one of my dive buddies nearby in case of a sudden lurch in the boat. (I have some super dive buddies!)

Doing a giant stride does not seem to aggravate my back. I am doing successively higher entries, and I find that the impact with the water does not cause problems.

On the way up the ladder, with my torso straight or even tilted back, the direction of the weight is exactly wrong for me. Last time I tried climbing the ladder with gear, I was in extra pain for a week. I can do it if I have to, but I pay the price for it.

BTW, I have a herniated disc at L4-L5, and degenration of most of the discs in my spine.

 

[redacted]

I use my arms a good deal on the ladder(s) so I guess that relieves some of the pressure from my gear on my lower back. You may want to try discussing this a bit more with the Fling. After all, you are not asking the crew to handle your gear and you are talking about bringing a number of dive buddies with you to help (you with gear and the Fling with expenses). At best, you would have to be prepared to sit out dives if the seas get too rough for your plan to work safely.

You might also discuss alternative plans that will not add to traffic on the ladders and back deck while a bunch of divers are trying to reboard. For example, were you to dive side mounts with say an 80 (or a 63) and a 30, you could hang the main tank on a side line and then use the lighter 30 for your exit. Of course, that would mean re-filling both tank but this may be a reasonable exception to their "pony" rule.

It is a great diving experience.

 

[Wookie]

I can understand that, considering your liability to the crewmembers on a JA vessel. I notice though, that the Fling also would not let a dive buddy help with the gear. (This is not to question your policies on your vessel; but just wondering if the JA would apply to a non-crewmember injury?)

A related question: Do sidemount divers always board the vessel with both tanks "donned"? I was thinking that one (or both?) tanks might sometimes be doffed prior to boarding, but I don't know for sure as I have never dived sidemount.

This thread caught my attention because for about a year I was handing my rig up to the boat before climbing the ladder due to a case of quadriceps tendinitis. In my case, I *could* have climbed the ladder if there had been a dire reason to do so; it just would have resulted in a "backsliding" of my healing tendinitis.

A couple of times in slightly rough seas we chose for me to doff my gear and secure it to the tag line, and then pull it into the boat after I boarded. This had a few advantages over just handing it up from the water in the vicinity of the transom.

Obviously Flower Gardens may be a whole 'nother ballgame; I've not dived there.

As far as allowing someone else to handle gear, yes. Adaptive divers must be trained in adaptive scuba techniques and dive with an adaptive trained buddy. We allow it, as far as I know the Fling allows it. Adaptive is different than "special needs". just for clarification, the Fling and the Spree (and every other liveaboard and day boat in the USA) are exempt from the requirements of the ADA. That was my first threat when we changed the policy to not allow crew to handle clients gear "I'll sue you under ADA!". Knock your socks off, dude. And don't threaten me on my own boat.

We have conducted many charters where someone with a bad back arranged for a buddy to haul gear. I don't specify how they haul it, it seems a little harsh to try to tell someone how to bring gear up the ladder, but I wasn't there. If SCUBASailor were to come on the Spree, we would allow him to bring a buddy to haul gear, but WE WOULDN'T DO IT. We will happily steady you to the jump gate, up the ladder and to your gear station, but we won't haul your gear.

As far as sidemount goes, we don't allow doubles on sport trips in any configuration. You are welcome to single sidemount with a pony on the other side. No, we still won't haul your gear. We can drop you a line off the back (a deco bottle stage line with multiple clips) to unclip your main cylinder and come up on your pony, as AWAP is about to suggest further in the thread.

EDIT - this sounds like a perfect place for sidemount. I'm told that sidemount gets the weight off the lumbar and onto the shoulders and hips. It might be worth a trip to cave country to dive with Rob Neto to see if you like it.