The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[vr]

Thank you for proving what I said "There is nothing so bad as a zealot with a cause. They defy reason and the truth to pursue their agenda." Calling everything a red herring, avoiding the questions and issues posed and redirecting to your own propaganda is easier than addressing the issues.

Diving is not a commodity item. Regulators are not the same as gasoline, eggs, or rice, or orange juice or meat. Brands don't matter in those things. They do with regulators which rules out dive gear as commodity items.

To remove a serial number from a reg you'd have to GRIND IT OFF.

Of course.

See http://web.archive.org/web/19981202220431/http://www.student.oulu.fi/~lapi/leisurepro.html The pictures were not archived, but I remember seeing them years ago when the page was available. I followed the discussion of removed serial numbers in the rec.scuba.equipment newsgroup. They are available at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.scuba.equipment if anyone wants to look them up

The difference was clear? Really? Apparently the gear in question was sourced from a real-live ScubaPro manufacturer. Now who lied to who?

You are lying. The source was formerly contracted to make BCs for ScubaPro and was required to turn in all tooling when the contract was terminated. They made counterfeit ScubaPro BCs with inflator mechanisms something other than what was found on genuine ScubaPro BCs.

SSI? SSI as an agency is not a gear company.

It is an agency whose affiliated instructors work only in dive shops as they do not allow independent instructors. Dive gear is sold in dive shops. See the connection? SSI's decision was reported last year. The fact that they are a certification agency and not a gear company is irrelevant. I did not say they manufacture gear. Their instructors do sell it at the shops they work at.

So instead we have lies, deception, and other forms of chicanery and falsehood,..

Much of it coming from you. I can see you have no interest in learning and curing your ignorance. Any further time attempting to communicate with you would be wasted.

 

[JohnF]

You should show a little more respect for those lds's you so exuberantly beat up on. If they all are forced out of business by attitudes like yours, then are you seriously gullible enough to think that the prices at walmart, LP, and Diveinn won't start to climb. Who do you think it is that keeps the high volume guys "honest"?

Fill Express is doing an okay job from all accounts, but they're in a unique situation. How many LDs's have enough demand to be pumping Nitrox and whatever steadily? Certainly not the local guys I deal with. For them the fills are a necessary service, not a moneymaker. In some countries (like Canada) O2 is deemed a med gas and has more restrictions on it's resale than it does in the States. I understand this makes it a bit more complicated to obtain the stuff and certainly creates more expense for the dispensers. Again, I'm hardly expert on that. Perhaps a Canuck fill station op can set me straight.

I'm just old enough to appreciate that ideals are wonderful sounding things, but too often they just get in the way of practicality.

JF

 

[jepuskar]

I got certified in August 2002, bought all of my equipment from my LDS by the 2nd confined pool session. Complete setup except for tank/weights. Spent quite a few dollars in addition to the training..

About a month later, after noticing the Aeris 750GT in the LDS for $1100.00, I was heart-broken...I wanted that computer. I forgot how I came across LP, maybe it was through this board...not sure, but they were selling the same computer for $450.00. I called LP on it to make sure it was new, had some kind of warranty..etc. I then went back to my LDS and quitely asked my instructor why their cost was more than double of an online store. All he could say was, ours comes with a warranty.

In this scenario, I bought from LP. I then made the mistake of going back to LP's website and calculating what my original equipment would have cost.....i almost got sick. However, I quickly justified the purchase because I didnt know any better as a new diver. I needed the help picking out my equipment, I have annual maintenance on my reg and BC for free because I purchased from them..I like that.

However, I am soon to be in another dilemma......Aeris is releasing a new hoseless dive computer any day now and being the stroke I am...I want it. I saw it at Our World Underwater and it was much smaller and I liked it...I liked it alot.

Leisure Pro already has a price listed for this new computer, but my LDS says they haven't been informed what the price will be. I am guessing my LDS will sell this complete for over $1000, but LP has it complete for $675. I love my instructor, I love my LDS, I love the service I get from them, but I also love my pocketbook.

I do support my LDS, but I don't feel that means purchasing everything through them.

jason

 

[Genesis]

Of course.

See http://web.archive.org/web/19981202...leisurepro.html The pictures were not archived, but I remember seeing them years ago when the page was available. I followed the discussion of removed serial numbers in the rec.scuba.equipment newsgroup. They are available at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...scuba.equipment if anyone wants to look them up

You're talking about NINETEEN NINETY-FIVE. As in EIGHT years ago. As in BEFORE THE INTERNET was in wide use (and certainly before e-commerce was much known to anyone!)

Second, there is ONE CLAIM by ONE anonymous person that such has happened. ONE. I looked at the entire thread, and despite a number of challenges from various people nobody has stepped forward to claim that this was in fact the case - except the one original sock puppet. Second, the original "cite" was from an article claiming to be TWO YEARS OLD, but the original seems to be conveniently missing from the archives! So was it really posted, or INVENTED two years later? Hmmmmm??? Maybe some DIVE SHOP got a reg, filed off the serial number, then made this claim, eh?

Nice try. (Next time try citing something both reasonably current AND with some corroboration - this "claim" has neither.)

I along with many others have purchased regs and other "hard goods" from LP in the last couple of years. Every single item that I or a friend of mine has purchased has come in the original manufacturer's box, with all original manufacturer's manuals, and with all serial numbers intact.

Every single time.

I challenge you to find ONE participant here on SB who will identify THEMSELF as having received one piece of counterfeit gear from LP, and have the 'nads to stand up and say so in public, where their identity can be determined by LP (through subpoena if necessary!)

quote:
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The difference was clear? Really? Apparently the gear in question was sourced from a real-live ScubaPro manufacturer. Now who lied to who?
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You are lying. The source was formerly contracted to make BCs for ScubaPro and was required to turn in all tooling when the contract was terminated. They made counterfeit ScubaPro BCs with inflator mechanisms something other than what was found on genuine ScubaPro BCs.

Ah, and who represented them as SP BCs? Did the firm who sold them to LP? Or did LP? You don't know, do you? Since the tooling was NOT returned, obviously (due to the fact that they were made and other than the inflator apparently were indistinguishable from the real thing), I think some reasonable conclusions can be drawn there.... Let's see, we have tooling that was supposed to be destroyed or returned, and clearly wasn't, then some additional BCs were cranked out with nice lables on them that to any reasonable person would appear to be authentic.... not hard to figure out what was going on here, and it wasn't LP playing the games.

quote:
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SSI? SSI as an agency is not a gear company.
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It is an agency whose affiliated instructors work only in dive shops as they do not allow independent instructors. Dive gear is sold in dive shops. See the connection? SSI's decision was reported last year. The fact that they are a certification agency and not a gear company is irrelevant. I did not say they manufacture gear. Their instructors do sell it at the shops they work at.

Actually its "Concept Systems", not SSI, as that's the name of the company. They produce no dive gear. So how do they, precisely, manage this cash transfer operation on commissions, given that they don't actually represent any lines of hardware and can't enforce it?

Nice try - yet again.

(BTW, two of my friends just signed up for an SSI OW class. There was no mention of any "free" classes subsidized by gear purchase.... fancy that. One has to wonder if this is more of the "discredit the (other) agencies" game that has been played oh so well in this "industry.")

Finally.... (from a different poster)

You should show a little more respect for those lds's you so exuberantly beat up on. If they all are forced out of business by attitudes like yours, then are you seriously gullible enough to think that the prices at walmart, LP, and Diveinn won't start to climb. Who do you think it is that keeps the high volume guys "honest"?

Simple - if they stop being honest, they create a market opportunity for others. That's all it takes for someone to re-enter a market - someone just has to get a bit greedy.

 

[JohnF]

Does anyone else see the irony in an idealist touting the honesty of big business for driving the little hometown blood sweat and tears guy out of business?? I love it. It's a world class contradiction.

JF

 

[Genesis]

Does anyone else see the irony in an idealist touting the honesty of big business for driving the little hometown blood sweat and tears guy out of business?? I love it. It's a world class contradiction.

Nonsense.

If you truly provide a value package that excels, you won't be driven out of business by Walmart or anyone else.

If you don't, you will, and you deserve it.

The little hometown "blood, sweat and tears" guy failed because he thought his neighbors OWED him a living, and he owed them NOTHING beyond what they could get at Walmart. He was wrong, and he paid for it with his business.

This little "hometown blood, sweat and tears" guy sold a commodity service and commodity products in a cut-throat marketplace with 100 competitors in the local market region for close to 10 years. This very same little "hometown" guy didn't get driven out of business, despite plenty of people attempting to do so, and despite my services and products selling for far more than many of our competitors sold for. Why? Because we provided a value package that made sense to enough people to keep us very happily IN business, and NEVER had to lie about others doing things like filing off serial numbers or claiming that they were "counterfeit" dealers.

We simply had quality service at a fair price.

My opinion of a businessperson goes straight in the toilet the minute they start lying about their competitors. If you make an adverse claim about your competition, you had damn well better be able to solidly prove it, or all you have accomplished is demonstrate to me that you'll lie to your customer - me - in an attempt to get me to buy from you.

That won't get you very far with me.

 

[JohnF]

Genesis once bubbled...


Nonsense.

If you truly provide a value package that excels, you won't be driven out of business by Walmart or anyone else.

[UNQUOTE]

And you equate price cutting and reduction in service to a value package that excels? Is that how you shop for surgeons and teachers for your kids? You're letting your zeal for the cheapest price cloud your judgement.

That won't get you very far with me. 8)

JF

 

[RiverRat]

Seems to me that someone needs to convince the manufacturers
to warranty and support their products that are being pushed online same as through the LDS. A level playing field would make it fair all the way around.

 

[Amber]

RiverRat once bubbled...
Seems to me that someone needs to convince the manufacturers
to warranty and support their products that are being pushed online same as through the LDS. A level playing field would make it fair all the way around.

I agree. I don't see why they don't already do that now. I'm sure they could sell far more equipment online than through an LDS if they had it backed by a warrenty.

But then again if that was true, I doubt it would be much cheaper than from an LDS.

 

[scubasean]

I called Dive-Rite about something after I had purchased the Transpac II from LP.

Dive-Rite was quite helpful, but lamented that if they could figure out where LP got the Dive-Rite gear, they'd cut off that supply line.

My point is that it isn't the manuf affirmatively deciding not to warranty the items, it is the abnormal supply channel causing the problem...

Sure, the manuf. could decide to perform warranty service after the fact, but that would make the playing field even more unleveled.