The PADI thing...

[miketsp]

One of the leading causes of dive fatalities is heart attacks.

I agree that's what the statistic says.
However, having talked to a quite a few people that have been present at incidents over the last 30 or so years, many cases that were obviously not due to this cause were officially logged as such because it's more convenient to all concerned.

This includes several cases where the victim officially died on the boat, after completing the dive because if they had died during the dive the life-insurance policy would be invalid.

 

[dweeb]

Exactly - were you trying to make my point, or yours? On one hand, you state the need for more thorough and better training, yet there are many of us that did not have formal training for quite some time and are safe, successful divers. You can't have it both ways...

You can also theoretically play Russian Roulette for hours at a time and be OK.

No contraceptive at all is still 95% effective, since in any act of intercourse among healthy fertile people, there is about a 5% chance of conception.

Just because someone, somewhere, rolled a set of dice and came up with a string of sevens is not a valid rationale for betting all you have at the craps table.

 

[Jason B]

I remember back in 1989 when I got my PADI OW cert. The first time in the pool we had to remove our mask was kind of shakey. My instructor pulled me to the side after class and worked on it with me. He would hang around after class and have me swim laps underwater with no mask. He did this on every pool class we had. I'll never forget the open water drill, almost every student bolted to the surface as soon as the water hit their face, even though they had no problem the one time they had to do it in the pool. When it was my turn, no problem, because by that point I already had a total of over an hour of diving with no mask. It really helped out and I appreciate my instructor noticing and pointing out my weak point and suggesting (and assisting) in my overcoming the problem. I guess what I'm getting at is that no one else had a problem in the pool but freaked in open water which shows that performing a skill once does not constitute mastery of that skill.

 

[gj62]

Why not? They issue an access credential, thus they function as a filter. Shouldn't it be a meaningful filter?

Not really - you can go diving without the card - there's no law that says you can't. You can also open a shop and sell air to anyone you like - no card required.

One of the leading causes of dive fatalities is heart attacks. We can't say for sure, but everything we know about it says that couch potatoes usually have heart attacks when they get up off the couch and do something active without adequate conditioning.

You're point being? This is probably the leading cause in bowling alley's too, but no one is calling for a fitness test there (or on softball fields, etc).

The more valid question is, how many fatalities result from panic? You ask what in diving induces panic - to you or me, almost nothing. But to a panicky person, lots. Is diving more panic inducing than, say, golf? Maybe not, but panic in diving is far more likely to kill you than panic on the green.

How about behind the wheel of a car? Or climbing up the side of a mountain? Panic is a funny thing - what may panic you today may be small potatoes tomorrow. You can't submit a person to 3 or 4 instances and deduce if they are prone to panic, or if they would panic in that same situation the next time.

I said here that I prefer the European model - Americans taking the German driving test have a 75% failure rate.

Do you know why? It isn't that the test is particularly difficult in the driving portion - sure, there is a required night & autobahn portion (big deal - don't pass on the right). However, you do have to know some mechanical aspects about the car and the test is only in German (at least it was 7 years ago). Of course, they allow *anyone* who has a drivers license in another country to drive for 1 year without such testing, so I don't know what good you feel it does. Also, a license there is valid forever - even if you go blind. Lastly, about 1/2 the states in the US have reciprocity - you can apply for a license and never take the test.

Not when that training confers a credential, like a medical or law degree, a driver's or pilot's license, or a diving certification. Dive training is not a class in flower arrangement.

As I said, " if you already have the knowledge and the skills, training is just an affirment of that." That's exactly what a driver's or pilot's license affirms - there is no presumed training. Same with passing the bar.

Not necessarily. There has been a concurrent increase in supervision, which is annoying to the competent.

Exactly where is this true? In my travels, I find that there is no problem finding a shop/boat that will simply transport me to and from a site (no in-water supervision). Of course, for those that want a DM/tour guide, businesses have been quick to fill that need.

There have also been numerous posts about accidents and near misses here that never seemed to show up in "official" listings.

As far as "near miss" - nobody that I know attempts to list them. Please name a specific dive related death (even an MI) you are aware of that was not in the DAN statistics. I am willing to believe there are a few out there, but not a significant %.

This was a student with a 3.8 GPA -they would have put forth the effort if they had the expectation it would be necessary.

So the supposedly bright student underestimated the course requirements - the system still worked correctly - it was the student's fault for not applying themselves, or simply not being able to do the work. GPAs don't really impress me, nor do degrees - at least not as a measure of anything having to do with diving.

 

[gj62]

"It's quick and easy"
"Diving is a safe and enjoyable sport"

Exactly - as the statistics show.

READ THE BACK OF YOUR LIFT TICKET!!!!!!!

I don't sign my lift ticket. Also, that is only in the US.

You do if you rent a kayak or canoe. My friends did just last week.

Buy one and be free...

I've sat around a campfire and heard Mike recount the incidents. It's luck that someone was around to rescue them. It's certainly not any attribute of the would be victim that saved them.

Explain it any way you want - in the end, I'd let Mike make his own arguements - he's much better at it than you are.

Except that PADI has, BY THEIR OWN CLAIM, led and driven the trend. Absent competitive pressure from PADI doing it, the other agencies would not have.

PADI wasn't always the leader - the other agencies, if they felt it was wrong or bad for the sport could have opted to compete on that footing - but they didn't. Surely you are not absolving them from the faulty training you feel they offer because the CHOSE to follow the market leader?

 

[gj62]

You can also theoretically play Russian Roulette for hours at a time and be OK.

No contraceptive at all is still 95% effective, since in any act of intercourse among healthy fertile people, there is about a 5% chance of conception.

Just because someone, somewhere, rolled a set of dice and came up with a string of sevens is not a valid rationale for betting all you have at the craps table.

Exactly - I'm so glad you understood my point. If the risks were as great as you propose, and given the number of divers from the major agencies diving today, it is statistically improbable that the accident rate would be lower than other sports that require no training or oversight if the sport was actually as dangerous as you seem believe for major agency-trained divers.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Not really - you can go diving without the card - there's no law that says you can't. You can also open a shop and sell air to anyone you like - no card required.

Actually you can't, at least not if you want insurance.

The insurance companies that insure dive shops and instructors (ive done business with two of them) require you to follow agency standards.

Also in order to be a member of the PADI retail association (it gets you discounts on student supplies) you have to sign an agreement that states that you will only sell air to certified divers.

While you can go diving without a card in many places. you can't get gas or access from an agency affiliated (insured) shop and you will have trouble getting on a charter depending on where you are. You also won't be able to dive in most "parks" or privately owned and insured dive sites.

As much as I'd like to see better training I'd also like to see the "requirement" for certification go away. It only serves to convince people to buy a card even if they don't care about the quality of the training. It creates a market fo the card pedlers.

Without the "requirement" I think most divers would still choose to look for training but they wouldn't buy it unless they saw real value in it.

How often do we hear some one say that they know an AOW class is useless but they're taking it so thay can get access to certain sites that charters restrict to advanced certified divers or because they think they need it to get into a rescue class? You just created a market for those selling cards and a do-nothing class and now you have a diver who's simply paying for access and doesn't expect anything from the training.

Take away that requirement and it would be much harder to sell an AOW class unless the diver really saw value in the training.

BTW, you can get into a PADI rescue class without being AOW certified so if that's your only reason for taking the class skip it.

 

[gj62]

I know the insurance issue- but again, this is the industry as a whole that has adopted and allows this to continue. It absolutely benefits PADI and the other agencies, but it is not solely their doing. I wonder what effort is involved in coming up with "Fred's Diving Cert" and pawning that off on an insurance co?

However, my point was unlike driving or flying, it is not illegal to dive without a cert, and while difficult in some areas, you can legally dive without a c-card.

 

[zboss]

They have the time; they usually don't have to cut their lawn, or clean their houses, or fix their own cars. They simply CHOOSE to fil their time with more activities. What shortening dive training says is that diving isn't appealing enough to compete for their time, which, of course, begs the question of how much time they'll spend diving once certified. The town I live in is very geographically divided, with one side having a predominantly blue collar culture and the other side a white collar culture. Of the students I've dealt with in the past two decades, the ones from the blue collar side of town are the ones who purchase a full set of gear, and dive at least once a month. The more affluent our students are, the greater the likelihood that, once they've gotten the "diving" box on their experience ticket checked off, it's off to the next recreational trend, but the working class students seek to get a lifetime of recreation from the investment in diving.

rich folks you know, but all the ones I know are either retired and can rightfully take time to enjoy their lives, or are working 80 hours a week when everyone else goes home... they also spend a significant part of their lives away from home on business trips.

These folks also spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars on yachts that include scuba compressors... to support this so-called non-diving lifestyle. With just one purchase of a yacht they are spending more on their scuba/sailing/boating habits then the average joe makes in a lifetime, if that's not supporting the industry I don't know what is- remember, the scuba industry that PADI is suporting isn't just about selling classes and equipment, it's also about all the services that people consume while at a destination... hotels, food, telecommunications, sanitary facilities, national park fees, etc...

 

[MikeFerrara]

I wonder what effort is involved in coming up with "Fred's Diving Cert" and pawning that off on an insurance co?

I don't know. I would guess that you could get a policy written for about anything by some company. The issue would be what it would cost. You'll have trouble getting descent rates without descent numbers.

The easy way would be to require all your instructors to be instructors through other agencies first. that would allow them to get instructor insurace. All that would be required then would be to get the insurance company to buy off on insuring the instructor to teach your classes.

I think this is basically what agencies like the NSS-CDS, NACD and maybe even GUE have done.

My insurance covers me to teach any class that I'm authorized to teach by any agancy even though I have to be an IANTD instructor to get the insurance. As far as I know there isn't a set list of agencies that I have to work with. Than I guess the question is how does the insurance company define "gency". For 25 bucks you can get a business license and presto-chango you're an agency.

There are lots and lots of agencies many of which are small and you don't here much about them so obviously it can be done.