The Philosophy of Diver Training

[The Chairman]

To me, the need for verification is only there to cover the filler's liability in our out-of-control tort system;

Wow... the REAL reason why we have some of these rules in our agencies. It has nothing to do with trying to dumb down the system: it has everything to do with risk management.

 

[The Chairman]

The focus of this OP however is Agency Training Philosophies.

Not even close... your focus has been agency bashing. You have assigned your opinion of an agency's philosophy based on events 17 years prior to this discussion. Talk about holding a grudge! Let it go!

In fact, I would suggest that as philosophies go, every agency wants to train divers and turn as many as possible into instructors. They each have a different focus which can easily be seen in their slogans.

PADI: The Way the World Learns to Dive!. Obviously, they want numbers.
NAUI: Dive Safety through Education. Obviously, their focus is more on safety.
SDI: A no nonsense approach to diving: Obviously, they want to cut out the needless crap.
SEI: I can't remember it, but it said "Full Education" so obviously they want to have the most comprehensive class.

Rather than Thal and DCBC casting aspersions about how evil PADI is, why don't instructors for the various agencies tell us THEIR thoughts on the philosophy of the agency (ies) that they teach for. That would far more productive and less acrimonious.

 

[DCBC]

Not even close... your focus has been agency bashing. You have assigned your opinion of an agency's philosophy based on events 17 years prior to this discussion. Talk about holding a grudge! Let it go!

In fact, I would suggest that as philosophies go, every agency wants to train divers and turn as many as possible into instructors. They each have a different focus which can easily be seen in their slogans.

PADI: The Way the World Learns to Dive!. Obviously, they want numbers.
NAUI: Dive Safety through Education. Obviously, their focus is more on safety.
SDI: A no nonsense approach to diving: Obviously, they want to cut out the needless crap.
SEI: I can't remember it, but it said "Full Education" so obviously they want to have the most comprehensive class.

Rather than Thal and DCBC casting aspersions about how evil PADI is, why don't instructors for the various agencies tell us THEIR thoughts on the philosophy of the agency (ies) that they teach for. That would far more productive and less acrimonious.

Perhaps you could start by telling us your thoughts on your agency's philosophy. We've heard you recite the slogans, but they are not necessary related to their training philosophy; slogans are catch words for marketing purposes, but we've been through all that haven't we?

Rather than throwing stones AGAIN, you might like to comment on THE SPECIFICS of my posts rather than just repetitively suggesting "agency bashing." If you are saying that the information in my post is inaccurate, tell us what is incorrect and the reason behind your statement.

You do not present anything to negate what I'm saying, you solely hypothesize the reason why I'm saying it (which is inaccurate). Perhaps you might attempt to dispute the content and accuracy of what I'm saying; it would be a refreshing change from your past dialogue.

 

[Crush]

Not even close... your focus has been agency bashing.

NetDoc, if you openly state that DCBC is involved in agency bashing, would you be offended if someone said that, as a businessman, you are sticking up for PADI so as to not lose the revenue which SB (and therefore you, personally) generates from PADI sponsorship?

 

[TechBlue]

Not even close... your focus has been agency bashing. You have assigned your opinion of an agency's philosophy based on events 17 years prior to this discussion. Talk about holding a grudge! Let it go!

I would suggest the same to you Pete, you are extremely selective about which posts and questions that you answer to and you are behaving like a dog with a bone, let the personal **** go and let's try and keep this objective. The 500lb gorilla seems to be overly sensitive. Doth he protest too loudly?

 

[Walter]

In 1990 PADI didn't allow instructors to schedule dives with OW students after OW requirements were met? Getting 10 dives, or 20, or however many is just a matter of getting into the water the last I checked.

That would still prevent him from offering a combination class and would have required a couple weeks (at least) after the completion of the OW class before the AOW class could begin.

Actually it is, if you take the entire course that I teach there is at least one thing in it (and let's remember, these are not wild ass of my own, but tried and true exercise that have been used for over half a century without incident) that is expressly prohibited by every recreational agency out there.

I'm curious to know what that one thing is.

And shop affiliated instructors who try to do better than agency standards dictate are often shot down by their LDS.

True, which is why agencies requiring dive shop affiliation as a method of policing instructors is ridiculous.

I taught for a shop in Naples for several months. The owners (not instructors) were always trying to get me to change my classes (not for the better). After that experience, I decided to remain independent.

PADI: The Way the World Learns to Dive!. Obviously, they want numbers.
NAUI: Dive Safety through Education. Obviously, their focus is more on safety.
SDI: A no nonsense approach to diving: Obviously, they want to cut out the needless crap.
SEI: I can't remember it, but it said "Full Education" so obviously they want to have the most comprehensive class.

Back to slogans and mottos.

I generally agree with your interpertation of what the mottos mean. I do find it interesting that although you posted SEI's motto earlier in the thread, you didn't take the trouble to look it up for your second post on mottos & slogans. Perception needs to be taken into account. For example, you said about SDI, "Obviously, they want to cut out the needless crap." I would have said they want to cut out what they see as needless. Otherwise people might take an opinion as a fact.

Earlier, you called me "the original Warm Water Wimp" and state that I "refuses to dive in cold water."

After I pointed out that, considering my diving history, this is obviously a mistake, you ignore it. Come on Pete, you should be gracious enough to acknowledge your mistake.

why don't instructors for the various agencies tell us THEIR thoughts on the philosophy of the agency (ies) that they teach for. That would far more productive and less acrimonious.

Why don't we hear what SEI has to say about their philosophy?

PHILOSOPHY OF SCUBA EDUCATORS INTERNATIONAL
There's a great sense of self-esteem that kids and adults get when they learn a new skill like scuba. Like all
exercise programs, snorkeling and scuba contribute to good mental and physical health. Scuba Educators
International instructors don't just teach snorkeling and scuba; they teach character values, too, encouraging
everyone to achieve his or her personal best. Instructors and volunteers set the example by modeling high
moral standards during all courses and diving activities.

Scuba Educators International leaders welcome and embrace people of different ages, incomes, abilities,
races, and religions. Caring leaders create an atmosphere that is challenging and nurturing at the same
time. Safety is one of the most essential ways to show caring: Scuba Educators International leadership
must emphasize the health and safety of divers, participants, staff and volunteers at all times. They must
comply with good risk management practices, Scuba Educators International policies, government laws, and
licensing requirements. Scuba Educators International instructors and volunteers know that people
participate in snorkeling and scuba for fun - this attitude keeps people coming back for additional courses,
resulting in lifelong enjoyment and health benefits.

When caring scuba instructors create a safe and inclusive environment, like any other wholesome activity,
scuba becomes a tool for personal development. Scuba Educators International programs achieve these
goals. Scuba Educators International instructors promote good physical, mental, and spiritual health, which
provides recreational diving opportunities and contributes to a better quality of life for all participants.

Scuba Educators International Creed:
- The desire to share an experience rather than sell a sport
- A concern for people and what they feel and how they learn
- A program dedicated to safety through education rather than just marketing
- A course of instruction that maximizes the abilities of each individual
- A course that teaches students and their buddies to become independently competent in the
water and out
- Our students become divers that can safely enjoy our recreational activity throughout the world -
to the fullest

The Open Water Diver course

Recommended course outlines are included in the SEI Diving Open Water Diver Instructor Guide that
matches the required text, Scuba Diving by Dennis Graver. The Open Water Diver Student Packet
contains workbooks, dive tables and log book. The entry-level Open Water Diver course has been designed
as a seven-session course in the classroom plus one session for the final exam. Eight sessions for pool or
confined water is common practice. Each class/pool session is designed to take from three to four hours
making the total from a minimum of 24 hours to a standard course of 32 hours. Open water training over at
least two days traditionally takes at least six to eight hours or more depending on the circumstances, i.e.,
local quarry or lake vs. offshore boat diving. Our instructors are encouraged to add more dives. At some
local aquatic facilities the Open Water Diver course is taught in six class/pool sessions to match other
programs. In academic environments, a semester class that extends over 12 or more weeks is required.
SEI Diving allows our instructors the flexibility to meet these needs.

Vision:

To be recognized worldwide for the premier quality of instruction seen in our students.

Motto:

Learn from the best where a full education makes the difference.

 

[Thalassamania]

...
I'm curious to know what that one thing is.

There is at least one thing that virtually every agency would prohibit, that's not to say that it is the same thing with respect to each agency. Perhaps SEI is different, I'm familiar with their philosophy (and support it) but not with the details of their standards.

For example, we do BB ascents, we do free ascents, we do buoyant free ascents. Just those items are contradictory to most agency's standards.

 

[Walter]

Perhaps SEI is different, I'm familiar with their philosophy (and support it) but not with the details of their standards.

For example, we do BB ascents, we do free ascents, we do buoyant free ascents. Just those items are contradictory to most agency's standards.

Looking at the standards for the Open Water course, things I find that are prohibited are:

1. Bailout with the air off. Bailout is required with air on. SEI calls it a Bail-in.
2. Conducting open water training dives in an overhead environment.
3. Conducting more than 3 open water dives in one day.
4. Exceeding 60 ft on an open water training dive.
5. Assigning buddies for buddy breathing. (There's a great deal of information on cleaning of mouthpieces and prevention of disease transmission - especially Hepatitis B and C, HIV, Oral Herpes, Cold virus, and Influenza.)

 

[Thalassamania]

We do a bailout, so we're batting 1000. Is a bailout prohibited in later courses?

 

[medicgts]

Being a newer diver myself I can say that I was taught to rely on myself first and then my buddy. For me it's a natural thing as at work my partner and I rely on each other all the time.