The true costs in the Certification fee

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
One can excuse an OW student from making a poor choice in terms of class or instructor because they lack any context around which to base that choice. However, by AOW, you have adequate context to determine why you want to sign up for the class, and what you expect to get out of it. why do so many people complain about AOW? How You have the ability to evaluate the instructor ... particularly if it's the same one you took your OW from. So much responsibility do you take for not putting adequate effort into researching the quality of the services you expect to get before laying your money down? Would you do put the same effort into any other major purchase you make?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

A lot of divers take AOW within their first 20 or 25 dives and have had no regular interaction with other divers or spent time reading forums like SB (yeah, that's a different thread). They STILL have no "context" by the time they are ready to take AOW and no inclination to do any "research."

I would guess that I had been reading SB on and off for three or more years and had completed Rescue by the time the idea of "shop for the instructor not for the course" really sunk in.

 

[SailNaked]

I think if you get an accurate itemized list as requested you would find that things like shop and pool rent and shop owners and employees time were the majority. Instructors are mostly paid a flat nominal fee. And they cover their own expenses. If I have 2 students in a class I get about 2$ an hour. If you have no shop. Use the pool at your housing and find an instructor that does not need to pay bills from his time then you will pay books and fee to cert. Cheap. As for quality practice makes perfect? Why not try harder to keep instructors? Aw never mind. Silly question.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

 

[flots am]

"Doing it cheap" Thread made me think of my cert costs and then ask, why?


. . .

With the Ice diver, all we paid for was for the actual certification costs. The instructors volunteered their time so that they could get more people qualified. The pool time was part of an agreement out club had with the local pool, and the classroom time was the same as the pool.

Some might think, you get what you paid for. I paid a small cost, and in comparison, learned more in that one course than my other 2.

Unfortunately, I do not live near that club anymore, so I cannot do anymore courses through them.

So, why go cheap? Why not?

"Cheap and good" is generally a confluence of unexpected circumstances.

Pools are very expensive. If I had to guess, I'd say that an Olympic-sized pool in the northeast could easily cost $5,000/month to heat, staff and maintain. You got your pool time for free.

A shop needs to keep the lights on, maintain insurance, pay employees, etc. You got that for free too.

Instructors need to have insurance so if someone screws up, they don't end up homeless. You got that for free too.

The two models are just different. If you could get a free OW class with a good instructor, I'd say go for it, but you can't really complain that a shop charges for it's services, since that's the only way for it to exist.

flots

 

[Jim Lapenta]

When your number one goal is not to make money, then things change slightly. It was almost as though the instructors wanted you to be successful, and learn as much about it as possible.

My AOW, it really felt as though the instructor was there just to sign off those dives, not to actually teach me anything.

My OWC, I did learn lots, but, I am part of the group that would be at the bottom, overweighted, kneeling on the bottom doing the skills.

When I compare the 3 courses, the ones where the instructors are paid, it as though they did not care as much.


I notice that regardless of the activity, people who are paid never seem to give as much as those that volunteer.

So, If I can just pay the cert fee, and not have to pay for anything else, that is a great bargain.

That has nothing to do with the fee. You just had crappy instructors. My AOW is going to be 395.00 this year per student plus their expenses (gear, entry fees, air fills, travel,etc.) for 6 dives and 8 hours of classroom. And I guarantee people will get their money's worth.

 

[swimmer_spe]

Those are realistic expectations ... and it sounds like you made a poor choice of instructor. But a couple of questions, if I may ...

1) What were your motivations for taking the class?

2) How much did you know about the instructor before you signed up for the class?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

1)
OWC - so that I can eventually do my dream of diving in the Great Barrier Reef.
Ice Diver - It sounded cool
AOW - Everyone said I needed it to dive.

2)OWC and AOW - nothing.
Ice diver - I had been diving with the group for about a year.

I figured that the AOW would be at least as good as my OWC.

---------- Post added February 23rd, 2014 at 07:03 PM ----------

That has nothing to do with the fee. You just had crappy instructors. My AOW is going to be 395.00 this year per student plus their expenses (gear, entry fees, air fills, travel,etc.) for 6 dives and 8 hours of classroom. And I guarantee people will get their money's worth.

I wish it was the same for my AOW. I had no classroom time, only the required dives. Barely even went over the book, or what we were 'actually' diving.

So, when someone now says I need a course, or I should do a course, I say bull......

 

[Redshift]

A lot of divers take AOW within their first 20 or 25 dives and have had no regular interaction with other divers or spent time reading forums like SB (yeah, that's a different thread). They STILL have no "context" by the time they are ready to take AOW and no inclination to do any "research."

That's true, especially when PADI thinks an OW diver can go straight into AOW with no dives, do some experience dives, not even the specialties and become "advanced", with the permission to dive deeper, etc.

But even divers with more experience, if they stayed diving with the school where they took OW, they'll have one view of how things are done, they will usually trust their instructor and think everything is the way it should be.
It may not be easy at first because new divers are more dependent on having someone more experienced to lend a hand, but they should gain experience with different divers, different centers, different places.

I think this thread touches some common points with the one about wasting money on certifications. Sometimes the "waste" doesn't come from the costs, it comes from what is given back to the student in exchange for the payment. In the example from swimmer_spe, it seemed to have been a substandard AOW.
Jim, you said your students will get their money's worth. But I ask you, if you follow the minimum requirements for the AOW, with some not very important "experience dives", sometimes even combining two in the same dive... don't you think that AOW is intrinsically a poor certification? It can be good if the instructor put in the extra effort, but if they don't... And I think that by default, the certification should not allow that to happen and that it takes a bit more to become "Advanced".
This is leading not only to a lack of respect from the divers towards some certifications, but even the industry acknowledges that by very often not trusting the cards.

 

[CosFragger]

I know of a diving operation (not here in the US) where they only cater to Japanese clients. They have their own in house Course Director and seen student progress from OWD to OWSI in a matter of weeks. Numerous guests are being trained everyday in Japanese. Makes me worried about the quality of instructors they made since i've led dives with those guests and most were terrible divers.

 

[oly5050user]

Removed

 

[flots am]

Jim, you said your students will get their money's worth. But I ask you, if you follow the minimum requirements for the AOW, with some not very important "experience dives", sometimes even combining two in the same dive... don't you think that AOW is intrinsically a poor certification? It can be good if the instructor put in the extra effort, but if they don't... And I think that by default, the certification should not allow that to happen and that it takes a bit more to become "Advanced".

Jim (along with a bunch of others here) doesn't teach PADI, and the definition of "AOW" is not standard. However it's only a small incremental improvement over Open Water.

If The diver's OW class was sufficient, AOW would be nothing more than some interesting dives and a little extra class/pool time. AOW isn't supposed to be "Remedial SCUBA" where stuff that should have been taught in OW, is given another go-around.

If you want a useful card, I'd go with Master Diver, which requires Stress & Rescue and 4 "specialties". I'd pick take First Aid, O2, Night and Low Vis, and Navigation.

It may not be easy at first because new divers are more dependent on having someone more experienced to lend a hand, but they should gain experience with different divers, different centers, different places.

Everything is a learning experience, if you survive it.

flots.