Training... which is worse? What would be better?

[Soggy]

I choose to drive on the road, rather than slide into a ditch.

Plastic represents formal training, which translates to book knowledge of a skill. Experience represents ability and translates to safety...ideally, anyhow. Both are necessary to be a safe diver.

This is analgous to the MCSE IT certification track. There are many "paper MCSEs"...these are the people that have read the books, done the practice tests, paid the money, taken the tests and passed. They can answer the questions Microsoft says they need to know in order to be certified. However, this does not mean that they have real world troubleshooting/implementation experience. There are also people who have lots of experience, but haven't read the books, and may not be implementing or fixing things the best way. They could benefit from going down the certification track.

I believe the same is true of SCUBA diving. I hold an AOW card with a deep diving specialty. However, I won't be doing 100ft dives any time soon. I lack the experience to do this safely. I'll start at my current max depth and work my way down from there as I feel more comfortable. I have the knowledge, but not the hands on experience to be safe.

 

[livestodive]

I would vote for #2. I have learned a lot from more experienced divers. I have learned a lot from reading through posts on this board also.

I really enjoy diving with new divers too. I watched a friend that starting diving this year go from rototiller to a well trimmed diver. She out breathes me now

She is doing all of the navagating on Wed. It is really great to see somone grow in confidence when they get it right. That determined smile is priceless.

 

[TCDiver1]

UP, newsflash ... this just in.

A lot of us do both and having been doing both for years. Just because we have the instructor plastic does not mean our buddies have to be in a class to learn something from us.

I would have to "don" option one for the following reason. Not all divers that claim to be advanced, are advanced. Not everyone is as sincere as UP is. Just as some instructors are not sincere in how they do training. Flame away if you want but at least there is some quality control set by the agencies.

There would be essentially no quality control in option two except to rely on the integrity of the "advanced diver" you were learning from. I don't think picking an "advanced diver" to mentor you would be any easier for the novice than picking an instructor.

IMO in a perfect world option two would be the perfect option. We don't live in a perfect world which is why certifying agencies were needed in the first place IMO.

 

[landlocked]

Plasitic that allows you to buy air, nitrox and do night dives from a boat. (Why do you need more?)

Training that teaches you valuable skills.

Experienced and thoughtful diver friends (like scuba board) that help you to expand at your own pace and in pace with the valuable skills mentioned above.

 

[Cave Diver]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
There is a ditch on both sides of the road. Where are you?

In the water DOING the dives instead of on the road debating which ditch I would rather dive in.

There are merits and downfalls to both arguments. I think the trick is to find what works best for you then.... GO DIVE!

 

[Uncle Pug]

Cave Diver once bubbled...
In the water DOING the dives instead of on the road debating which ditch I would rather dive in.

...well don't feel too bad.... looks like a lot of folks are.

 

[Jonathan]

I'll go for down the middle - the road I guess.

When I started I did a lot of courses - but it was not so much for the plastic as diving with an instructor that really knew his stuff. I was under no illusions that o/w or even aow qualified you as a diver to dive the UK waters with a buddy of similar qualification.

Most of my buddies have been people that started the same time as me so this is not the cheapest way to get an experienced buddy but in my opinion well worth the money spent.

This instructor was not a tropical destination trained instructor with a 100 dives under his belt but is an experienced cold water technical diver.

So I got some really good diving in, learnt a lot and happened to pick up a bit of plastic or two on the way....

Jonathan

 

[The Chairman]

I just started a new class this past week... AOW. Had one kid just walk out because I was "too demanding". Then he came back in ten minutes later asking why I didn't come after him.

The instructor can lead a diver to water... but he can't make him dive safely. It is not the instructor's butt on the line... it is yours. He can't read your SPG when you are diving without him, and he can't make sure you plan your dives and dive your plans. He can only guide you through a learning process and test that as best he can... doing it safely after that is up to you!

I can provide for my students a solid base of learning, including knowledge, skills and safety awareness. But the student has to apply them in order for them to mean anything. I give them EVERYTHING they need to dive safely... EVERYTHING! I test them on land and in the water to be sure that I have taught them thoroughly. I try to impress upon them the gravity of the situation, and most "get it". But there is just no way to ferret out the attitude that is putting up a front to just get by. No way on earth. There is no way to follow every student and make sure they adhere to what you have taught them.

But when one gets bent, I am sure that -I- will be the villain. When one pops a lung, I will be the culprit that did not completely spell out what the dangers of diving are and how to avoid getting injured. See that guy beating the crap out of the reef... it must have been his instructor or the agency that just "pushes plastic".

No, it's not the agency's fault and it's not the instructors fault. The fault lies squarely on the diver who is too lazy to improve himself. The fault lies with the diver who only sees it as a piece of plastic and so only meets the bare minimum to pass the class. It's the personal responsibility of EACH AND EVERY DIVER for how they dive. I can only be responsible for the example I set.

So escape the faulty logic that blames society for the criminal's misbehavior. Step around the convoluted connivings that tell us that America is responsible for the attack on the World Trade Center. Reject the notion that the flight school in Florida was to blame either... and leave poor 'ol Clinton out of it too.

Put the responsibility back on the student where it belongs. Stop trying to make every instructor and every LDS and every Dive agency mere money hungry whores. They are not all irresponsible, lazy louts who only want to take money for sub-standard instruction. MOST, yes MOST are dedicated individuals who make very little for providing so many with a GREAT sport.

call @EndRant.bat
call @DonFlameSuit.bat

And the student??? I told him that only HE could make himself a great diver and all I could do was to point him in the right direction. I wasn't going to try to force him to improve either. No, that's his decision, and that's his responsibility. After a bit of thought and soul searching, he apologized. Only time will tell how sincere he is about that.

 

[cpalerm]

I go with a combination of both.
Since you've already opened a can of worms, I'll just dump them out of it

I do think they push plastic, and generate a source of income for themselves and the LDSs. Some of the "specialties" they offer are what I would consider a complete waste of time and money given what they "teach" you.

My training has been with SSI, which from what I've seen has more stringent requirements. To get AOW you need 4 specialties (you choose which) and a total of 24 open water dives (most specialties require two dives as well).

I'm currently working on this, mainly because not having AOW restricts what I'm allowed to do (e.g. night diving @ Dutch Springs), even though I've already done so elsewhere with more experienced people that were willing to share their knowledge with me, and take me along.

At least the guy I'm doing the work with is a great instructor, and some things like deep diving I would probably not try on my own just by going with someone more experienced without some more formal, quality (which is not always available), training.


Cesar

 

[cpalerm]

NetDoc once bubbled...

No, it's not the agency's fault and it's not the instructors fault. The fault lies squarely on the diver who is too lazy to improve himself. The fault lies with the diver who only sees it as a piece of plastic and so only meets the bare minimum to pass the class. It's the personal responsibility of EACH AND EVERY DIVER for how they dive. I can only be responsible for the example I set.

Put the responsibility back on the student where it belongs. Stop trying to make every instructor and every LDS and every Dive agency mere money hungry whores. They are not all irresponsible, lazy louts who only want to take money for sub-standard instruction. MOST, yes MOST are dedicated individuals who make very little for providing so many with a GREAT sport.

Well... you posted right as I was composing my previous message.

I completely agree that the final responsibility for learning lies on the student; this also applies for someone that decides to learn on their own and by seeking more experienced dives that are willing to mentor him along.

What dissapoints me is that I've been offered classes at $150 (or $99 with a discount because I took the OW course there), plus the cost of books (more like pamphlets) for things like "computer diving" in which all they do is tell you how to use the computer you purchase; thanks, but I think I can read the manual myself. Same goes for the "equipment specialty"; if in this they taught you how to service your own regs ok, but they only cover things like changing a mouthpice (as if that required a technical degree to accomplish).

There are specialties that are worthwhile (otherwise I would not be shelling my $ for them, and would simply live without AOW); among the ones I'm doing now is deep diving; getting deeper into the theory, reinforcing skills and learning new ones both in classroom and open water is great, which later complemented by diving with experienced people that are willing to provide pointers is even better.

Well... I won't rant any more... In any case, as with everything else in this world there are pros and cons to everything, and bad apples in every batch...

Cesar