Tulum - what training should I get?

[syntaxerrorsix]

Yes, I think this is a great example of what happens when the rules for these guided dives are broken, and why they shouldn't be. Similar to the trained cave divers who have died by breaking rules which I posted earlier. I think you and I are in agreement that cavern tours shouldn't break the rules Lynne and I have been referring to. Maybe that's what's getting lost here-- that we're ONLY saying it's OK if it's done in accordance with those rules?

How much training do the divers get before they accidentally break a rule? Who checked out their skill set and signed off on them?

---------- Post added July 20th, 2014 at 07:56 PM ----------

You've seriously never heard of anyone trained by Steve Gerrard? He's one of the best known NACD instructors.

You mean the guy that states as his FIRST tenant?

• 
  Failure to understand that open water training is insufficient for the cave diving world; not obtaining cave diving training.

Nope never heard of him So you want to be a cave diver, huh? - DeepHorizon

 

[karstdvr]

Could you provide some statistics to help me better understand why you feel that guided cavern tours following the rules which are generally accepted in that region (Lynne stated them earlier in the thread) is unsafe? I'm trying to gain some perspective of your opinion, but you seem to only want to take cheap shots and avoid giving any examples of how you've based your opinion...

James,why need statisitics? We have all the statisitics from the 70s of what happens in this sport when you exceed limits. Realize when you say statisitic,that is a nice way of saying someone died,just easier to say. How many people do we have to have die before we say something is unsafe? Is there a cost/benefit ratio that can be applied so we can see number of successful cavern tours versus people who died by drowning,and left their loved ones grieving. In reality,will we ever stop this,no,it is Mexico,the location that has shallow sewer injection wells so one cave was so polluted with eColi you couldn't dive,land owners who dig up limestone to form a new entrance,or development plans that will lead to the loss of many systems in the future. A previous comment you made was right on. Someone is making too much money (land owners and guides) for this to ever stop. You have to ask your self do you support safe cave diving? and does safe cave diving mean promoting exceeding training limits?

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I'm putting together a discover deep cave program. It's guided, no worries bring your own helium.

---------- Post added July 20th, 2014 at 08:09 PM ----------

What? Trust me!

 

[gearhound]

Can I snorkel there?

 

[scubastingray]

From a newcomer's perspective one thing I see in both full cave diving and even justified in this situation is an adherence to rules.

There seems to be a maniacal post accident analysis to find a rule broken, as if pointing out that rule is a sort of defense mechanism. The deceased only had an issue because they broke a rule! I would never do that! It seems to belittle the risk.




This is just a newbie's perspective, and I'm not applying that to anyone in particular; that's just the vibe I've gotten.


Also, to be clear I think the concept of accident analysis is a fantastic way to develop best practices (well not fantastic, it would be better if no one had to make the mistake to begin with) - I just think the risk is understated and underrepresented.

 

[karstdvr]

From a newcomer's perspective one thing I see in both full cave diving and even justified in this situation is an adherence to rules.

There seems to be a maniacal post accident analysis to find a rule broken, as if pointing out that rule is a sort of defense mechanism. The deceased only had an issue because they broke a rule! I would never do that! It seems to belittle the risk.

.

Good points. I think all cave divers suffer from,"this can never happen to me" syndrome,so they look at the accident analysis for the violation of which rule ,and then rationalize that I am okay because I don't violate the rules. But we apply these rules to untrained divers who enter the overhead,and immediately say they lacked training,and that is what lead to their fatality. It is easy for us to say,don't enter the overhead without training,and accident analysis says you will be okay,but the oxymoron is you aren't exposed to accident analysis until you start overhead training. So, an untrained diver in the overhead,even with a guide, they don't see this as wrong,or interpret risk.

 

[ucfdiver]

I'm putting together a discover deep cave program. It's guided, no worries bring your own helium.

---------- Post added July 20th, 2014 at 08:09 PM ----------

What? Trust me!

Isn't "trust me" why nearly every cave diver "breaks the rules" by overfilling LP tanks? Or are you going to use statistics here and say because there's never been an accident as long as the tank is in hydro, that it's "safe"?

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Isn't "trust me" why nearly every cave diver "breaks the rules" by overfilling LP tanks? Or are you going to use statistics here and say because there's never been an accident as long as the tank is in hydro, that it's "safe"?

Aside from the fact that the majority of divers don't fill their own tanks and failures tend to occur during the fill process I'd say your statement is accurate.

Overfilling bottles is a violation of the rules yet many people justify their action based on nothing more than that's what everyone else is doing.

I had a friend once tell me that overfilling HP tanks was no big deal because everyone else did it. At the time they didn't know the difference between LP and HP and genuinely thought nothing of it.

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

The commonly accepted line has been drawn at "overhead".

Well my gosh!!!:shocked2: How close to death I was every time my buddy swam over me or when a boat went by up top. :depressed: I'll remember to have my reel in hand for such events in the future.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Well my gosh!!!:shocked2: How close to death I was every time my buddy swam over me or when a boat went by up top. :depressed: I'll remember to have my reel in hand for such events in the future.

If you don't like where the agencies have drawn the line feel free to start your own. My only point is that SB and this section is open to all people. A diver with 8 dives asked about cenotes. No responsible person is going to recommend doing anything other than taking appropriate training. What the OP does is ultimately his responsibility. Same with swim throughs, trust me dives or over filling bottles. The line has to drawn somewhere and overhead appears to be where the vast majority of agencies agree.