UK wreck death

[Doppler]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Yes, the safest way to go is not to dive. But the safest way to deco is with a lift bag, not flying in the breeze on a jon line.

This tread has been Hijacked... now it's: The safest way to deco...

Braunbehrens: how can you be so emphatic about what's the safest way to do something, when it's obvious your experience is limited? I can think of a couple of dozen places where drifting under a bag will get you smucked by a ****ing 1000-foot ocean going freighter... or fined by the USCG.

So with that in mind, you might want to be a little less dogmatic when dispensing advice.... it's advice, right?

 

[Braunbehrens]

Isn't everyone's experience "limited"? I haven't dived many wrecks, but I've done lots of dives where we were hanging on the anchor line, often in current. It's a bad idea, and one wrought with many problems.

What do you do when someone is swept off the line? A few seconds and he's gone. How many chase boats do you have? What if someone else gets swept off?

It's much safer to drift the deco and have a chase boat. Clipping yourself to the anchor line is dangerous, and anyone thinking about it for a few seconds would realize it. At the very least, you want to be able to let go if something happens, not be tethered to something.

I'm getting really sick of the personal attacks. I dive DIR, and as such come under attack all the time by people who think they know it all better. I don't mind this so much, but I really would prefer it if we focus our discussion on the diving issues.

So, if you want to talk about why jon lines are better or worse, we can. If you want to call me dogmatic, and tell me whether or not to dispense advice, then I'm not interested.

You can, however, ask me how I came to form my opinion and I'd be glad to discuss it.

As for people saying "I don't have a drysuit because I can't afford it, I don't have a chase boat, etc. etc." my answer is simple. If you don't have the proper equipment, don't do the dive. You wouldn't do the dive if you didn't have fins, would you? We don't base our dives on what is available, we figure out what is needed for a given dive, and when it is we do the dive. If it is not, we don't do it. Simple...

 

[dugandiving]

If you are sick of what you feel are personal attacks I have a few suggestions, and I am being genuine not sarcastic. Re-read a fair few of your posts. You may not mean them to come across this way, but they do appear to be very arrogant and often condescending. Secondly, it often appears that you see no room for any other opinion than your own. There are as many different ways to do something as there are people doing it. In spite of what you may have been taught, there is no one right way to approach diving. People do what their own experiences have taught them will work well. I have never said what you do in your diving is wrong. However, I and quite a number of others have had to pull you up when you make some sweeping statement condemning what others are doing. To be perfectly honest it often appears that you really do not know what you are talking about. Some time back you got into a debate with Padiscubapro about rebreathers, a subject you obviously know little about. When he scientifically demolished the sweeping and wrong statements you had made, you would not discuss it further. I think basically that your realized you were out of your depth and bailed out. Everyone at times sticks their foot in their mouth. Everyone has shot their mouth off and then realized they should have shut up. Just don't be so adamant about everything. Also, remember that the written word often comes across more harshly than if you had said the same thing to someone personally.

 

[Doppler]

Braunbehrens: Let's get a couple of things straight... first of all, I'm not picking on you personally, just your advice which I feel may steer a neophite diver in the wrong direction. I am certainly not picking on you because I think you dive DIR. But I am pointing out that the sytle of your postings is very aggressive and smacks of the dogma which is common among people who have only limited experience on which to draw. At no point during this thread did you say: "I have not dove many wrecks, but...." That at least would have framed your comments much better. There are several people here who have extensive experience diving wrecks. I have dove a few and in very varied conditions, from the Gulf Stream to the Great Lakes, and the Pacific to Scapa Flow. There is no silver bullet that works everywhere.

That said, here are some rebuttals to your dogma.

Jon lines are not a "Bad idea wrought with problems." How can you say that with such authority? Hanging on to an anchor line is potentially dangerous especially in high seas. Using a Jon line in similar conditions is a proven way to manage the situation in the best way given that live boating is not an option -- and it often is not. People who know how to use a Jon line do not get tangled. People on a Jon line do not get swept away in a current. Jon lines are not counter-indicated in Hogarthian diving. Jon lines are not dangerous. And finally, Jon lines are not a panacea.

Having a chase boat is a necessary precaution, but in many, many years of diving wrecks in high currents, I have only seen one deployed in earnest once. And that was a surface emergency.

Allow me also to explain that I have experience live boating... the last time I did it was Monday, and I write this on a Wednesday. However, on some wrecks, this is impossible... for example, the Jodrey. You simply can't drift off that one... another is the Empress of Ireland. The currents are unpredictable. So much so that if there were two teams leaving the wreck within three or four minutes of each other, they could drift in opposite directions.

Frankly, given our druthers, we'd all rather do deco while drifting on a deco platform under a 75-foot ocean-going tug with surface supplied gas, snacks and drinks and piped music... but that's not always possible.


You wrote "I'm getting really sick of the personal attacks. I dive DIR, and as such come under attack all the time by people who think they know it all better. I don't mind this so much, but I really would prefer it if we focus our discussion on the diving issues."

Well, sunshine, I don't give a monkey's toss whether you dive DIR or Wanker Supreme. This is about giving advice to people and you are out of line. Hiding behind the "people pick on me because I'm DIR..." excuse isn't going to acheive anything... I teach Hogathian configuration and have a lot of respect for JJ (who was my cave instructor) but I have no time for bigotry based on incomplete understanding of the issue at stake.

Let's focus on diving issues and an opinion based on years of diving wrecks in pretty ****ty conditions... Jon lines are a useful tool and worth learning how to use, and in adverse conditions -- such as variable currents and high seas -- are an effective way to manage the rigors of staged decompression diving. Certainly worth learning how to use and certainly worth carrying in your wreck diving tool kit.

Now I defy you to challenge me on that.

Doppler

 

[Genesis]

If you tox and sink, you're done. G'night.

If you start to tox and start to sink in open water, the amount of time available for your buddy to get to you, arrest your descent, deal with the tox, and get you back to a reasonable depth is severely limited, especially considering that this will blow his (your buddy's) dive profile and plan. If you begin to breathe again after the fit BEFORE he can stabilize your position in the water and get you a safe gas source to breathe, you're done.

With that in mind, if you have an anchor line to use, a jon line appears to offer significant safety advantages, and few disadvantages. In a ripping current there are real trade-offs, but in a situation where there is NOT a ripping current (mild to none) the balance appears to shift to all advantages, and few if any disadvantages.

Braun, the zealotry doesn't cut it. The GUE/DIR/one-true-way, have a drink of the Kool-Aid, way of looking at diving is not always correct. One size does not fit all.

I do not (yet) do much in the way of these kinds of exposures, but I still see the value in a jon line as a way to enhance the safety of a diver during a hang. If your buddy cannot get to you in the event of a problem, he cannot help you. That much is obvious.

 

[Doppler]

Just a quick note to point out that oxygen toxicity is a weird and wonderful thing... and somewhat unpredictable.

A buddy of mine was telling me a story about the youngest member of an exploration team going into a tonic/clonic episode when the CNS clock was at less than 60% following a moderate to severe exposure in open water. Luckily, he was "caught" and saved from drowning or floating to the surface. Post dive briefing obviously focused on what caused this fellow to tox when his older conpanions were fine... the only difference anyone could come up with is the old guys ate a breakfast of meusli and fruit (I resemble this state myself) while the younger man ate a full-on fry-up... bacon, eggs, and so on.

Interesting thought for all you meat lovers out there!

Doppler (the buddhist vegetarian )

 

[Braunbehrens]

Doppler once bubbled...
Braunbehrens: Let's get a couple of things straight... first of all, I'm not picking on you personally

SNIP

But I am pointing out that the sytle of your postings is very aggressive and smacks of the dogma

SNIP



Well, sunshine, I don't give a monkey's toss whether you dive DIR or Wanker Supreme. This is about giving advice to people and you are out of line.

I see. My style of posting is overly aggressive. Well, I'm glad that you on the other hand are the shining light of reason and good will.

Good day to you, sir.

 

[Doppler]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


I see. My style of posting is overly aggressive. Well, I'm glad that you on the other hand are the shining light of reason and good will.

Good day to you, sir.

Well, finally you get it! Thanks for your understanding.

Now what about your stance on deco diving in heavy currents... isn't that what this is all about. Your complete dismissal of Jon Lines...

 

[Braunbehrens]

I moved this to:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27935

Since it is really more appropriate there.

I'd be happy to discuss it further if you can refrain from the personal attacks.

 

[gaschef]

There used to be a saying of "plan the dive" then "dive the plan"

Unfortunatly many divers do not plan the dive properly, working out O2 % and PO2 for the dive and deco is only a small part of the dive plan. I wonder how many "tek" divers actually produce a comprehensive dive plan with scenarios for a shortened abort dive, the planned dive, and an overstay contingency.

How much consideration is given to the introduction of modifiers into the equation if the dive is going to be stressful, cold, or just plain hard work. forget these at your peril.

Oxygen toxicity has been seen fairly regulary, in commercial divers at 1.2 Bar PO2.

How many "Tekkies" work out there Whole Body Toxicity, this includes all air dives done in the past few days, remember Whole Body Toxicity starts at PO2 above 0.5 Bar plus time. A 15 MSW air dive and the clock is ticking, again forget these dives at your peril.

Gas switching is another problem area, remember on diver at a time switches, and then wait for a while to see if there are any problems, before the other diver switches. If you both switch at the same time and you both have a problem, who is going to sort it out

Mark regulators clearly with the mix provided by that unit. American Nitrox Divers INternational, produce marker tags that fix onto the regulator hose and will show both the diver and buddy what mix is being used.

Finally O2 analysers is yours accurate, when did you last change the fuel cell, If you are not sure or your analyser get it checked out, there is no point in trying to get gas to plus or minus 1% when your analyser cannot perform to this level.

Any body has any problems, or would like to discuss this further

Email me

Tim "gaschef" Stevens

ANDI Extended Range Instructor Trainer IT#30