Versatile Sidemount Rig?

[Razorista]

I never heard a non cave diver talk so much about cave diving...

And I never had someone who does not know me at all become such a dear enemy of mine and follow me on every forum, nakatomi
I also never met a sidemounter who disbelieves possibilities as openly as you do, so why do you talk about sidemount diving at all?

I seldom talk about cave diving actually, as I don't talk about cave diving here.

I talk about durability of sidemount systems.
Objectively that is a weakness in the Stealth, as is the awkward placement of the pull-dump.
One of it's strengths is the very well made weight system, however.
That is true for any or most environments.

The Contour on the other hand is a lot heavier than most travel jackets for backmount.

---------- Post added November 9th, 2014 at 01:03 PM ----------

...never heard...

Sorry, but if you 'never heard' of someone fitting that description, never met someone yourself, you can neither have been open water, nor cave diving for long.
Since I know both to be not true, I have to assume you have to make up insults like that, just because you do not have anything substantial to use for flaming me.

 

[karstdvr]

Mind if I ask what is so special about those caves in Florida? Honestly, isn't a cave a cave? I mean, water can be cold/warm, there can be current, but why would that even change something to your rig?
I have done neither, but really can't understand what's so special about it.
Same goes for the "cold quarries" that some seem to mention, how would those be different from the ones in Europe or wherever in the world?

It's the diver that does the dive, not the rig...

Good question. Mexico and Florida are blessed by having a lot of karst concentrated in one region,which is the basis for spring/cave formation. Mexico enjoyed a vadose phase in its time,while Florida is phreatic. There are numerous reasons you'd change something,but the principle reason would be related to temperature and depth reasons. With the exception to the caves in the Merida region of Mexico,the caves are very shallow and relatively warm,so using very minimal thermal protection and AL80s has become the ideal configuration. Florida has more variety in that there are a lot of depth variations-one cave I like is only 12' deep,while another is 300+ deep. There is some variation in temperature because the karst is spread over a large area,the north panhandle region can be 68 degrees,and while further south is can get to the 70s-for water the variation can be huge. Going back to you original question if I am diving a shallow cave with a wet suit, I want small tanks,and a smaller wing,unlike a deeper colder cave which will involve multiple stages/deco,I will have a lot of thermal protection,and lift. My rig is basically set,but I have built in variability to make adjustments for the systems I am diving. You ought to see my rig when I dive Missouri that has a water temp of 54 degrees with depth.

 

[tbone1004]

The biggest difference is in the bottles, steel bottles are largel unavailable in Mexico, so when they come to FL and try to dive the same rig with steel bottles it doesn't work, and really does require modifications. Same thing with diving the rigs designed for FL cave diving with AL bottles, because the bottles hang so differently, it requires a completely different rigging style to get them to hang in the right spot

 

[gearhound]

I dive steels with my Stealth...no issues. I even ice dive with the Stealth, so temperature isn't a concern.

I do find it funny that the Florida divers will say that there isn't enough lift in the Stealth to dive steels, yet will advocate the SMS75. Don't they both have 35lbs of lift??? Even a modded SMS100 is said to only have 35lbs of lift.

They always point to the faults of the "Mexican" style rigs, yet ignore the faults of their own. I just read a thread where they're having problems with the dump valve jamming because of the routing...common on both the 75 and modded 100. A well known Florida cave explorer pointed out to me that the backplate is a line trap. The tanks are floppy unless you stay completely level. The caves that I dive in have all sorts of twists and turns and vertical fissures that sometimes require you to swim on your side. The "Florida" method would have my tanks like a bull in a china shop bashing into all of the formations if I turned on my side.

Each method will work in then environment it was formed in. However, I'm pretty sure my method would also work in yours. I started my sidemount diving in the Florida caves.

 

[kwinter]

I guess I'll be the nay sayer here. The OP didn't mention how much open water experience he has, but I think it might be rushing it to do cavern/intro in January after doing basic sidemount training in November. Unless the OP can get some serious hours on his sidemount rig (and he obviously doesn't own one yet) I don't think he should rush into cave training. Of course if he has a lot of OW experience and takes to sidemount like a duck to water, then it should be fine.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

 

[Razorista]

I do find it funny...

Discussions on technical comparisons of sidemount rigs always seem to move towards personal likes and dislikes for certain systems after a few posts.

As I am not a cave diver myself I might misunderstand this but does he really need his rig to be able to transport extreme amounts of gas that would require heavy steels?
Even if only those are available at a dive site a less experienced cave diver could reasonably use the big tanks partially filled to control excessive downward pull.
His penetrations depth will not be that great at first, right?

Personally I do think any sidemount rig to be able to carry tanks roughly equal to it's lift capacity compared to gas weight alone.
But does that matter for the tread-openers decision?

 

[kafkaland]

I guess I'll be the nay sayer here. The OP didn't mention how much open water experience he has, but I think it might be rushing it to do cavern/intro in January after doing basic sidemount training in November. Unless the OP can get some serious hours on his sidemount rig (and he obviously doesn't own one yet) I don't think he should rush into cave training. Of course if he has a lot of OW experience and takes to sidemount like a duck to water, then it should be fine.

Agreed. I wish I had more time for this, but now all I can do is the best to be as ready as I can be in time. The trip was planned as a dive trip with my buddy, and we wanted more than just taking guided cavern tours. His idea was a full zero-to-hero eight day course, I had initially only cavern in mind. So cavern / intro cave for five days, with the best instructor we could find, was the compromise. My open water experience is about 60 dives, in a lot of different conditions, from Caribbean reefs to drift dives on Hawaii to deeper cold-water wrecks in the Great Lakes. While my trim and buoyancy control is generally quite good, I'd say, I nonetheless notice that I sometimes still drift up a bit when I'm seriously task loaded. I'm working on it and hope to get better at this, as I will obviously need it. And that's why getting my own sidemount rig, instead of the rental one from the dive shop that's too small and maybe not that well set up as soon as possible, is high on my agenda right now. And I sure wish I didn't have to do this in 42F water and icy winds topside right now. Thank you for your concern, though.

 

[decompression]

In all honestly, at this point you are not going to be the next Sheck Exley, but you are going to learn some invaluable skills and hopefully a "mindset" that will serve you well throughout your diving career. I'm sure after day one you'll realise that these are skills that must be practised before making a 3000m exploration cave dive. Careful progression is the key. Depending on your instructor, he may not even sign off on your cert but give helpful suggestions on how to improve. Don't be discouraged, learn and enjoy.

 

[tbone1004]

gearhound, that's why I have one of each Razor style with a 25lb wing aimed for my LP72's and AL80's using rigging methods where the tanks are stuck in position due to rotational torque on the valve, and my one off Nomad where my HP120's are able to hang and are still held with some rotational torque from the bungees, but because the butts will always sink, they can't be rigged the same as the AL80's, they have to come off of the waist belt onto something farther up. Not much, but there is also a huge difference in those of us that have small bolt snaps on almost no leash coming off of the attachment points, to those that have huge leashes that pull the tanks forward, those are the ones prone to flopping around, at worst my 120's in the nomad will hang about 3-4 inches off of my hips, which is the length of the snap plus the half inch of line needed to make it cuttable. Some of the other rigging methods I have seen hang almost a foot away from the dive and doesn't allow them to go upside-down. With my rig going upside-down is still difficult and they will hang below me, but regardless of the rigging method used, the heavy bottom steel tanks will always fall, so that is the main adaptation you have to contend with, AL vs Steel tanks, other than that the harnesses are equally suitable for either method, but I still maintain that you need some sort of rails in line with your back instead of your hips to properly dive steel tanks. This can be a bent D-ring set all the way back to where it is still on the waist belt but in the same plane as the lower plates, or it can be a double D-ring on the crotch strap, or a full out butt plate like is optional on the Stealth, but diving a stock Razor style harness as it is designed to be rigged just doesn't work well with steel cylinders, especially the galvanized ones. Fabers have floaty butts so they are less of a concern, and some of the LP72's hang like AL80's which is why they can work, but you can't take a Worthington 3442 tank and hang it from a hip D-ring, just doesn't work well enough to treat it like you do with the aluminum bottles. Always about adapting to your environment, never about forcing a square peg into a round hole

 

[gearhound]

I have a set of Worthington hp100's that I dive regularly without using the buttplate. 3442psi. I posted video of it on another thread. I prefer diving with Al80s or even lp85s, but use all of the tanks I have to stay in practice. The only thing I do different is to add one more wrap with the bungee around the valve. Otherwise it's the exact same set up whatever tanks I'm using...except for the amount of lead i use. I still have a couple of rigs with the buttplates, but haven't taken them out since I fine tuned with the Stealth.

I'm not advocating forcing a square peg into a round hole, but my Stealth lets me get through a lot more holes than I could have gotten through before

To the OP, get your buoyancy and trim nailed down before you get there. That's going to be what holds back your advancement with any good instructor. Get into a pool and practice your frog kicks, back kicks and helicopter turns ad nauseam...and then practice some more! You've booked for a limited number of days on your vacation, so make sure you get your money's worth by learning new skills instead of having the instructor spending a day or two rehashing basic skills. My one piece of advice that I give all of my students is to take a couple of deep breaths to calm down before doing a skill. That'll help you with your buoyancy while your task loaded.