Was this a terrible idea, or merely a bad idea?

[MXGratefulDiver]

What's the symptom for being stupid? Narcosis is the process of becoming stupid and stupid people are too stupid to know that they are stupid. It's a classic catch 22.

I think using a term like "stupid" is counterproductive ... at least when addressing someone who doesn't already know the answer. It attaches a stigma that isn't really relevant to what's happening, which tends to encourage people to go into denial that they're affected by it.

The problem with narcosis is that it sneaks up on you ... people who are feeling its effects are often completely unaware of it. And the effects are often subtle enough that it won't really matter unless you're faced with a problem. Then it can have a compounding effect ... it takes you longer to recognize the onset of a problem, it takes you longer to decide what to do about it, and it takes you longer to react once you've made the decision. The problem then is that the key to staying out of trouble underwater is often staying on top of a developing situation ... and the longer you wait before doing something about it the worse the problem becomes. This is the real issue with narcosis ... at a time when it's increasingly important to maintain an awareness of what's going on, your senses are in slo-mo and your awareness is dulled to a fraction of what it normally is. That's one reason why you may not even know you're narced ... and the biggest problem, particularly with new divers, is that you can easily "forget" to do the simple things you know you should be doing ... like monitoring your air supply.

Stupid has nothing to do with it ... it's not your intellect that's affected so much as it is the wiring that connects your intellect to your body ... you're in there, you're just having a more difficult time than usual getting out ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

I think using a term like "stupid" is counterproductive

We obviously have a different approach to teaching this. To me, it's a graphic, in your face way of describing Narcosis. Someone once compared it to becoming a cow. I like that analogy. The deeper you go, the more bovine your thinking becomes. Slow, less resourceful, confused and unable to arrive at a conclusion... IOW, stupid. How often have we read someone doing something while deep and the response is "That was stupid!" Sure it was, but it was the person's fault. Blame the narcosis.

BTW, the most dangerous person to dive with is the one who claims they don't get narced. They're delusional because they never "feel" the stupid and they think that's the end of it. That's the insidious part. You just can't feel stupid. However, you can fix it by simply ascending.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have never felt anything that tells me I am narced, and I have done more than a few dives to depths where narcosis should have been a significant factor. On a dive I took during a trimx class, my instructor dove on air while I was on trimix. He had us breathe off of each other's tanks for a while to see the difference. On the surface, he told me he could feel the difference almost immediately. I didn't feel a bit of difference, either when I took the air for a while or when I went back to trimix. On the other hand, I have definitely had experiences that told me I was narced, no matter how I felt, and here is one that illustrates it well.

This was about 10 years ago. I was in the engine room of a wreck in Truk Lagoon at only about 100 feet, the minimum depth at which we normally start talking about narcosis becoming a factor. I had a buddy, and we were following a guide. The guide went through a hole in a bulkhead, and I noticed that his regulator hose just missed a piece of pipe sticking downward from the upper right corner of the hole. I told myself to be alert for that. My buddy then went through, and he did indeed catch his regulator hose on the pipe. He pulled it down and went through. Once again, I reminded myself to be careful about that. Then I went through and caught my regulator hose on the pipe. (I was using a conventional regulator setup then.) As I felt the tug, I asked myself "Which hose is it I caught?" After all there were several possibilities. It could have been my SPG hose. I finally decided it was my regulator hose. I then asked my self, "Do I pull it up or down to free it?" It then occurred to me that these were really easy questions, and I should know the answers to them. Then I decided I must be narced, even though I felt perfectly fine.

I really think stupid is a good word for my condition on that dive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We obviously have a different approach to teaching ...

I try to avoid demeaning language when I teach anything scuba. Maybe it's just a style thing, but I've yet to find it to be the best approach to any topic in an activity that is supposed to be promoting having a good time. I can be quite direct, and make no attempt to soft-sell risks, but typically try to describe things in ways that don't reduce it to what is essentially name-calling.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

but typically try to describe things in ways that don't reduce it to what is essentially name-calling.

Good for you, Bob. I guess I'm not that talented. I remember all that gobbledygook from my ITC and frankly, I wasn't that impressed with the softer, nicer and somewhat indirect approach. While some are afraid of calling a spade a spade, I call it an effin shovel. I teach that BOYLES stands for Breath Or Your Lungs Explode, that a diver needs to honor their limitations or die and that depth makes you bovine stupid. I even share a rather poignant story about how stupid I was while narc'ed. Narcosis is no respecter of persons. Smart, not so smart, skilled, not so skilled... depth makes us all farm animal stupid, so beware!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I suspect it's more a product of location ... much of the language you use has been in use in your area, particularly among the cave-diving community, for decades. We're a bit mellower out west ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

I suspect it's more a product of location

Quite possibly...

 

[AJ McFinnagain]

Honestly, I think it's about as smart as using four pieces of TP after taking a crap. Might it work to wipe your butt? Yup. But things might go to **** real quick and that's a crappy situation to be in.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Why? Why not just rely on his PDC??? Use the tools available to you.

I'm all about limits, but I'm not about silly limits or needless hysteria. I'm going to guess that the comments about how heinous this dive was are by people who have never been on this wreck. Does it matter? Are the laws of physics somehow muted in Roatan? No, but the accompanying narcosis and stress are certainly affected. I'm somewhat at a loss to explain it, but it's more like a 60ft dive than a 110. Watch your air closely, but have some fun. This is as easy as it gets. It's sheltered by the surrounding reef structure so there's no current to speak of and no down lines needed. The water quality is exceptional and it's just a beautiful dive.

I really expect more from an instructor but, it appears that you just like to try and put my replies down based on past postings. For one, we do not know that he had a computer. Secondly, this was his first dive outside of being OW certified. Third, it does not matter if I have done this dive before. I know depths and time and that is really all that matters. So, in your eyes, "it is more like a 60' dive than a 110' dive. Well that is just stupid fuzzy numbers. So please do me and all divers a favor. Don't encourage divers to dive beyond their cert. level. I feel that if we met / dive together we would have a great time together but on here it is a different story. I am a very positive and safe diver and encourage others to reach their level best and never hold them back unless they do not have what it takes to the next level. Heck, some are asking him about his SAC rate. He, more than likely, does not have a clue...nor did I at open water level cert. I could almost bet that most dive related accidents happen in clear water where it is very deceptive.

 

[The Chairman]

I really expect more from an instructor but, it appears that you just like to try and put my replies down based on past postings.

I'm sorry. Do we have a history I don't know about? If we do, I don't remember it at all. I don't hold grudges, not even small ones.

I asked you a question based on this statement:

Since you are a new diver you really have to treat it as a square profile

No more and no less than a mere question based on nothing else but this comment. If he was diving tables, then a square profile is in order. However, most divers and even new divers nowadays dive PDCs. I can't remember when I saw the last table on a boat. My assumption is probably more likely than your assumption to the contrary. Back to the question: You're complaining about "fuzzy numbers" and so the idea that a "new diver" has to dive tables or a PDC differently than a veteran puzzles me. There's no sliding scale for the NDL based on experience on either a table or a PDC.

Don't encourage divers to dive beyond their cert.

Wow. Where did I do that? He was diving with the shop on an "adventure dive", which means his guide was an instructor. It's nothing short of a training dive in that regard.

It's my experience that every dive site presents different challenges. A 110 foot dive on this wreck in Roatan is nothing like a 110 ft dive on the Spiegel Grove in Florida. You can call it "stupid fuzzy numbers" all you want, but the propensity for being severely narced on the Grove is significantly higher. Why is that? High currents, colder temps, darkness and stress levels are significant triggers for narcosis and the Grove has that wreck in Roatan all beat in those categories. I write this out of experience and not mere conjecture.

So, I'm sorry I don't live up to your expectations as an instructor. I'm sorry you feel there's some animosity between us that I'm unaware of. This is a discussion forum, and I'm sorry if my continuing the discussion has offended you in any way. I do believe that the dive he went on was well within his purview as a student under the supervision of an instructor/dive master. I also believe that NDLs apply the same to newbies and veterans alike. If you're diving a PDC, use the tool as intended... as you learned it.