We might stop diving

[dumpsterDiver]

It's also important to actually ditch your weights on a regular basis to make sure it's actually possible.

I decided to ditch the weight pockets on my DUI weight and trim after a dive because I hadn't done it in a long time.

I pulled. Nothing happened. I pulled really hard. Nothing still happened.

I'm a big guy (6'0", 215 Lbs) and can toss someone over my shoulder like they're a sack of potatoes and I couldn't ditch these weights.

Finally I walked out of the water and asked one of the guys on the shor to pull the handles. It took him two hands and and a thrid person holding me up to ditch the weights and when they finally let loose the nylon webbing on the handle actually ripped.

It turns out the harness had a recall and I didn't know it.

Sorry to get long winded, but I wanted to mention that there's a difference betwen knowing how to ditch weights and actually being able to do it.

Neither my kids nor myself use weight pockets... I said a weightbelt and I meant that specifically. Glad you figured out the problem before it mattered.

 

[tracydr]

A couple of years ago, I had my horse buck me,really hard. Now,I've been riding my entire life and have never been afraid. I'm still not afraid but I did decide that it was time for that off the track thoroughbred and I to part. It's the same with diving. If something doesn't feel right or comfortable anymore, dial it back or down.
I've been in a wheelchair or crutches for a good part of the last 6 months. I've had a lot of spare time to think. I know that I don't want to die sitting around wishing that I'd done more of what I love. More diving,more foxhunts.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

If you are prone to panic, disregard everything. Panic is the killer of divers and changes everything. Anyone prone to panic is a scary liability to themselves and their dive buddy as panic means you are way over your head and need more training, more experience and panic under water can change a non significant issue into a life ending one.

It is the rare occasion where I agree wholeheartedly with Mike on a diving issue. Quero should have done a number of things differently on her last dive, but barring some kind of medical issue there's still no reason she should have died in her rig with a wing full of air. If you don't think you can react to suddenly having nothing to breathe by getting ahold of yourself, figuring out whether you can safely swim up your rig, and ditch it if you cannot...diving may not be for you. None of us should ever suddenly go OOA, but none of us should drown just because we did, either.

 

[Cave Diver]

One sure thing about life, no one has found a way to survive it yet.

Eventually, everyone dies. Would you rather die having lived life to it's fullest, or spend the rest of it sitting on your couch? Either way, keep your affairs in order, tell your loved ones how you feel about them and enjoy whatever you chose to do.

 

[Lopez116]

But, If you are prone to panic, disregard everything. Panic is the killer of divers and changes everything. Anyone prone to panic is a scary liability to themselves and their dive buddy as panic means you are way over your head and need more training, more experience and panic under water can change a non significant issue into a life ending one.

I know this might not be a popular opinion, but I don't think it's accurate to say panic is the killer. It's the improper reaction to the panic that is. Panic is a feeling only - it's the initiation of the fight/flight response. You can choose how you react to the feeling when you learn to recognize the signs of panic and deciphering what is/isn't a threat. I think with adequate training and experience (and especially in recognizing the signs of panic), people prone to panic can be perfectly safe.


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[Stoo]

I mean this respectfully:

More people die in car accidents in one day in the US than die while diving in a year.

Will you stop traveling by car?

This same topic came up in our local group after one of our members died after he committed a careless error in the FL Caves. A bunch of the younger folks rationalized his death "away" when the cause was identified and explained. Me, being old and wise, pointed out that diving has a fundamental risk involved. We're under water. We don't have gills. There is inherent risk in this. The DEGREE of risk varies with the dive, the diver, the weather, the alignment of the planets and the maintenance schedule you follow on your gear.

And of course more people die yearly driving cars. There's about a zillion driving hours logged in North America every year. There's what, a few hundred thousand diving hours. It's a totally bogus comparison.

In our local group's discussion, which purports to be a "technical diving" group but really isn't for the most part, there was much discussion about the awesomeness of "deep dives" and caves and so on. And once again, I, being old and wise, pointed out that the rocks at 300' in Georgian Bay (Lake Huron) are largely the same as the ones at 100'. And the caves, while pretty and awesome, are also incredibly hostile environments, and, without malice, they will kill a careless diver in the blink of an eye, and sleep well that night... assuming caves actually sleep.

What is perhaps disturbing about Quero's passing (and I too spoke to her here) is that it wasn't a difficult dive. I stopped reading the analysis thread when it became clear that little of value was being said and the rest was speculation. I understand that the main thought was that she was overwhelmed with a new drysuit and camera and was perhaps wearing too much lead and simply ran out of air. And to that I say... Yup. Happens all the time up here. People in over their figurative heads. Cascading events. A little problem leads to another and another and another...

So to the original poster I say this: If this unfortunate event has shaken you, then you should stay out of the water. You need a clear head to dive. Period.

How long you choose to stay out is up to you, and only you will know when enough time has passed. And it might mean that you never dive again. And you know what? That's ok.

We divers are a strange bunch. Many of us live for diving. Others make their living diving. Some think they love diving and tell everyone that they do, because it's cool. And I, more than most LOVE diving. I've been doing it for 40 years. I have logged thousands and thousands of hours underwater. I worked commercially. I taught for 25 years. I take some pretty nice pictures and have had some published. I met my wife diving. I met the last one diving too. All of my friends dive. Literally. All of them. I have gear coming out my wazzoos. I have an extra house in Tobermory, just for diving. And a boat. And an insanely expensive camera.

But, if I ever thought for one minute that I might die diving, I'd stop it. What would be the point in carrying on? Diving is cool. But so is mountain biking. And golf. And skiing. And hiking. And surfing. And knitting (I suppose).

It is not for we fellow Scubaboarders to convince someone to continue to dive if that someone is shaken. It isn't our place to do that.

I will however say this... When our friend Carlos died a few weeks ago, we all agreed that if he looked down from The Great Beyond and suspected for one minute that one of us was going to stop diving as a result of his death, he'd promptly come down and haunt the H*ll out of us. I suspect the Quero would do the same... although in a more dignified and refined way of course, because that's the way she was.

Bill, you do what's right for Bill. I wish you peace in your decision.

 

[Dive Wananavu Fiji]

First Bill I will agree with you on one of your first points, there are A LOT of things you can do besides SCUBA diving. All those things you listed and then some can produce a lifetime of fulfilling experiences. No one ever said that SCUBA diving was all there ever was and all there ever will be... for you. Now for some of us it might be different. As a SCUBA Diving Instructor I am one of these people where SCUBA diving means a little more to me than other people. I'm not going to sit back and tell you diving is safe because I can't. I tell all my students the same thing. If you don't do it right you can die. Plain and simple. I have personally seen three deaths during my 14 years as a diver. I was not responsible for any of these divers in the water or on the boat but I was still in the area or also diving from the same boat. The fact is people die scuba diving. Now I am going to disagree with a couple of your points and add a little info you asked about.

The dive industry shares some of the blame. The industry as a whole continues to claim it’s a safe sport. But really, we do not know how safe diving is – in part because we don’t know how many dives have been taken. Not even that basic information is available. (I wonder why? The cynical part of me has an answer&#8230 At a minimum, LDS’s could count the number of fills as a pretty close approximation of the number of dives. Also, it is clear to me that the vast majority of dive operators operate in a “You should be OK” mode – no significant check on skills required for a dive. Too often, there is not realistic information about the skills required for a dive from the operator. We have certainly fell victim to this mentality on more than one occasion.

One of my biggest pet peeves about society today is increasingly pointing the blame somewhere else. People are taking less and less accountability for themselves. Every divers knows when they don't feel comfortable. Maybe it's the ocean conditions. Maybe it's diving to a depth they don't feel comfortable diving at. Or maybe it's what prompted your debate, they fear getting hurt. Divers know their personal limits better than ANY shop. A diver knows if they haven't been practicing their skills and they need to be honest with themselves first before they can be honest with the dive shop. Every diver we get through our facility we ask them when their last dive was. If it has been longer than 1 year we give them the option to do a refresher of skills and a shallow refresher shore dive (for a small price $60USD). I have had 1 person choose this offer. Every other diver has said, "No, I'll be OK."

There is no data that tells us what the incremental risk of diving is. I can find my risk of a heart attack based on may age (5.2% over the next 10 years) but I cannot find the incremental risk of suffering death from the 5% chance because I am underwater (I suspect it is nearly 100%). And I cannot find the incremental risk of having a heart attack or other medical events due to the various challenges of the sport.

This information is available if you ask the right people. Each year Divers Alert Network (DAN) puts out a document that examines dive accidents and their causes as well as reported dive deaths and every few years (Around 5 years) PADI also releases a document looking at dive accidents and fatalities. A DAN report from 2010 states a dive death occurs in 1 out of every 211,864 dives.

I recently saw a statistic that said 55% of all scuba fatalities were caused by a medical condition, mostly related to the heart. Which could be taken as they had just as great of chance dying while running a treadmill or having sex.

I ran some numbers from my personal dive experience and came up with a number a little more conservative than DAN (1 in every 120,000 dives) based on my personal experience with charter dive boats, average # of divers per boat and # of deaths I have witnessed over the years.

And, as has been well-documented on these boards, the certification requirements are in drastic need of repair. Good courses depend too much on the instructor, and the certifications awarded do not relate to the skills required for the dives offered by the industry (case in point: AOW). And usually, no one fails a cert course (except Fundies as far as I know). I am a teacher myself – I know what happens when you have a system where no one fails!

First I have failed more than 20 people from SCUBA. Failed is the wrong term. I have had students who didn't want to invest additional money for additional course time to work on issues that would not allow them to pass their open water course. Most of these students were not water people and they were taking the course for all the wrong reasons (sometimes I think I should be paid as a therapist rather than as a dive instructor) and decided other activities were for them. I have had a handful of students who just needed a little bit more work to complete their OW cert. PADI has a great certification called the SCUBA Diver certification that is for people who just aren't quite comfortable diving on their own yet. This certification acknowledges the student needs additional training and experience to complete their OW cert course but allows them to dive with a DM or Inst under easy shallow conditions to work on gaining that experience.

So the industry has put these options in place for Dive Instructors to not push everyone through. Now as a teacher yourself than you also probably have colleges who put in more effort than others in your profession. Dive instruction is the same way. Some instructors are more dedicated but 99% of them are still teaching the necessary skills the necessary way for a student to be able to make an open water dive with a buddy in conditions similar to the environment they were certified in and experienced level. Meaning a diver straight out of OW in Hawaii should not go straight to making a 100' dive in British Colombia as their first or even their 10th dive out of class. This is where the AOW class is suppose to pick up and help divers make additional experience dives under supervision of a dive professional to gain experience.

Maybe we’re just not the type of people for diving. We sure tried – we bought nearly all of our own equipment. We took several training courses. We did a number of pool dives to develop our skills. I’m OK with mechanical things, but it’s not my favorite thing to be doing in my free time. Emily is much less interested in taking care of the equipment. And physically, we’re OK, but neither of us is really the athlete type. Meaning that maybe we have more “events” than the average “good diver” simply because our mind-body coordination isn’t anything special (one way or the other). We are probably more prone to panic than the average “good diver”. Age plays into that, too. We’re not 35 any more. I am being honest about my limitations.

It is great you are being honest about your limitations, this is why most dive accidents happen, when divers are not honest. Diving is just like anything else. The more time and energy you put into the activity the more comfortable and proficient you become. Then it's up to the diver to decide how reckless they wish to dive. Remember there are a lot of things you can do to lessen the risk of diving.

Always dive with a buddy
Dive in conditions you're comfortable in (You already mentioned being uncomfortable in low vis)
Dive a depth you are comfortable diving. As the body ages it doesn't function as efficiently as it once did. Off gassing becomes for taxing on the body. Besides there are lots of amazing dives no deeper than 40-50'.
Dive nitrox to lessen then amount of nitrogen on-gassed
Make a safety stop on every dive and ascend slowly from your safety stop
Don't breath you tank too low, surface with 700psi instead of the recommended 500psi to in an emergency you have 50% more air in reserve.
Practice emergency procedures with your dive buddy. Once a month is best. Practice in shallower cold water will make any warm water emergecy easier to approach
Stay Fit to lessen the risk of a major (or minor) health issue
Get a Yearly Physical with a doctor experienced with scuba diving. If your doctor says don't dive then don't dive.
Keep your mask on your face and your reg in your mouth until you are back on the boat or shore
Use the tool dive charters give you. Use the descent line. Use the current line at the back of the boat. There is nothing more frustrating than watching divers fight currents on the surface and going up and down from the boat when they don't have to. Use them and stay relaxed.

I have a friend who is an instructor in her 20s, so she has a fair amount of experience and dive education but still chooses to dive recklessly making bounce dives to 160' on a single tank of air. Makes me cringe, but isn't going to make me give up diving, just as I have another friend who used to street race... didn't cause me to give up driving.

At this point only you know how much risk you wish to take in your life. Good luck with you decision. At this point if you already have this doubt I hear golf can be very fun.

 

[Stoo]

I mean this respectfully:

More people die in car accidents in one day in the US than die while diving in a year.

Will you stop traveling by car?

This same topic came up in our local group after one of our members died after he committed a careless error in the FL Caves a very few weeks ago. A bunch of the younger folks rationalized his death "away" when the cause was identified and explained. Me, being old and wise, pointed out that diving has a fundamental risk involved. We're under water. We don't have gills. There is inherent risk in this. The DEGREE of risk varies with the dive, the diver, the weather, the alignment of the planets and the maintenance schedule you follow on your gear. A diver can even do everything "right" and still die. That's the thing with being underwater.

And of course more people die yearly driving cars. There's about a zillion driving hours logged in North America every year. There's what, a few hundred thousand diving hours. It's a totally bogus comparison.

In our local group's discussion, which purports to be a "technical diving" group but really isn't for the most part, there was much discussion about the awesomeness of "deep dives" and caves and so on. And once again, I, being old and wise, pointed out that the rocks at 300' in Georgian Bay (Lake Huron) are largely the same as the ones at 100'. And the caves, while pretty and awesome, are also incredibly hostile environments, and, without malice, they will kill a careless diver in the blink of an eye, and sleep well that night... assuming caves actually sleep.

What is perhaps disturbing about Quero's passing (and I too spoke to her here) is that her last dive wasn't a difficult dive. I stopped reading the analysis thread when it became clear that little of value was being said and the rest was speculation. I understand that the main thought was that she was overwhelmed with a new drysuit and a new camera and lead and perhaps simply ran out of air. And to that I say... Yup. Happens all the time up here. People in over their figurative heads. Cascading events. A little problem leads to another and another and another... There is probably little to be learned from the navel-gazing that will come from her accident. Unless an underlying medical cause surfaces, "her" accident was just like many others. Too much stuff going on at one time for her skill level to manage. As sad as this is, it appears to be a perfectly "ordinary" accident, which is especially sad. We would all feel better if someone discovers that "THAT" was the problem... "THAT" being whatever you want... a defective reg, bad gas, thrombosis, a heart attack... anything other than the excrement hitting the oscillator.

So to the original poster I say this: If this unfortunate event has shaken you, then you should stay out of the water. You need a clear head to dive. Period. How long you choose to stay out is up to you, and only you will know when enough time has passed. And it might mean that you never dive again. And you know what? That's ok.

We divers are a strange bunch. Many of us live for diving. Others make their living diving. Some think they love diving and tell everyone that they do, because it's cool. I too, more than most, LOVE diving. I've been doing it for 40 years. I have logged thousands and thousands of hours underwater. I worked commercially. I taught for 25 years. I take some pretty nice pictures and have had some published. I met my wife diving. I met the last one diving too. All of my friends dive. Literally. All of them. I have gear coming out my wazzoos. I have an extra house in Tobermory, just for diving. And a boat. And an insanely expensive camera.

But, if I ever thought for one minute that I might die diving, I'd stop it. What would be the point in carrying on? Diving is cool. But so is mountain biking. And golf. And skiing. And hiking. And surfing. And kids. And spouses. And knitting (I suppose).

It is not for we fellow Scubaboarders to convince someone to continue to dive if that someone is shaken. It's not our place.

I will however say this... When our friend Carlos died a few weeks ago, we all agreed that if he looked down from The Great Beyond and suspected for one minute that one of us was going to stop diving as a result of his death, he'd promptly come down and haunt the H*ll out of us. I suspect that Quero would do the same... although in a more dignified and refined way of course, because that's the way she was. This weekend, we have two charter boats of divers doing a night dive on a wreck up here. Our friend had an idea that it would be cool to light up an entire wreck with lights and photograph it. So that's what we're going to do. To remember him. I get to take the pictures, and I must confess I'm a bit stressed about it.

Bill, you do what's right for Bill. I wish you peace in your decision.

 

[Max Speed]

My yoga class is killing me.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[TSandM]

I figure I can have a heart attack anywhere, and many of the places I go and things I do aren't very compatible with surviving one. Scuba is particularly unfriendly, but driving over a mountain pass at night or in the snow (which I do to get to work) isn't a great one, either. Neither is being on horseback. I simply am not going to worry about it, especially since staying active and fit is a good way to lower your chances of having it happen in the first place.

I have been on ScubaBoard since 2005, and Quero is not the first friend I've had here who has died. Most of the deaths have involved one or more identifiable mistakes that the diver has made to get where they were, and what I have taken away from the incidents is that my natural tendency to be a PITA about gear maintenance, dive plans, keeping skills sharp, and above all, being willing to turn, abort or avoid a dive if I don't like what's happening are all things I need to hang onto and reinforce. Complacency kills divers -- becoming too comfortable with being in the water and forgetting you are, indeed, entering a hostile environment which is utterly uncaring.

Only you can decide whether you want to dive. But I don't think you should make the decision while you are feeling emotionally shaken by someone else's story. As a lot of folks have pointed out, there are a whole bunch of relatively irrational risk assessments and comparisons in your original post. I don't think you can quantitate the risk of diving very well. But you're probably more likely to die doing it than playing bridge. You're the only one who can decide whether you would rather play bridge.