What do you consider "gimmick" gear?

[Dhboner]

Perhaps this is just me, but a few years ago a wetsuit company came up with this basic design and encouraged people to choose suit panels in their favourite colours:
View attachment 217885
More like a clown's outfit, but there again, more and more wetsuits and drysuits nowadays seem to have been designed by makers of Harlequin costumes. What's wrong with suits in solid colours?

If you dive in low visibility you will be thankful if your team have "unusual" colour patterns in their suits. Basic DIR black is not helpful in 2 foot vis but my sons have spotted my flame trimmed DUI through the silt many times ;-)

 

[David Wilson]

I never mentioned solid black, which one poster a few years ago said was difficult to obtain anyway. Back in the late 1950s Cressi and other diving equipment companies came up with the idea of solid "safety" yellow suits, which could be more easily seen. There was a classic look to them, unlike the "psychedelic" combination of colour stripes that I find gimmicky.

 

[ams511]

So basically a crutch, or "solution" if you want to be nice, to poor diving skills? LOL

I don't see how the philosophy is any different than a DIR/HOG setup using a short hose. In an emergency you always want to know where your regulator is. The problem is not poor diving skills it is that octo holders are not reliable.

---------- Post added October 13th, 2015 at 06:01 PM ----------

I consider the Air2 a huge gimmick personally. It doesn't do either well.
The octo is awkward and hard to use, it restricts head movement and also being that it's supposed to be used going up in an air share means you would also have to try and vent at the same time.
On the inflator function, the hose is way too long and hangs down off the front too far, and it's also is a big clunky thing. Way too unstreamlined for my taste. So IMO it doesn't do either well.

To each his own Eric but I don't have a problem looking up or even side to side with an Air 2 and a 14" hose, but I am not as tall as you. It breaths no worse than a puck octo and some newer models may be better. As for venting, at the time of invention people were diving with jacket BCs, most of which have a shoulder dump. Remember the Air 2 was designed for recreational diving only, so no overheads or deco.

---------- Post added October 13th, 2015 at 06:18 PM ----------

With the point being: What is going to happen if your inflation hose has to be disconnected? You are going to lose your octo. This is an unsafe situation for your buddy...now he has no spare air source at all. You need to call the dive immediately. Simply losing your inflator, and your inflator alone, is not a potentially life threatening situation.

Now you are getting into the realm of multiple failures, which have a very low probability of occurring. Without the inflator you can always buddy breath, so your buddy always has an alternate supply of air.

A lost inflator could be a potentially life threatening situation depending on the dive. For example a deeper dive in a thick wetsuit, full tank, the diver could have difficulty staying off the bottom.

 

[Dhboner]

I never mentioned solid black, which one poster a few years ago said was difficult to obtain anyway. Back in the late 1950s Cressi and other diving equipment companies came up with the idea of solid "safety" yellow suits, which could be more easily seen. There was a classic look to them, unlike the "psychedelic" combination of colour stripes that I find gimmicky.

I hear you (I'm an "old School" diver as well). I guess my point was that some of the more "flamboyant" colour schemes can help identify team members in poor visibility.

 

[seeker242]

In an emergency you always want to know where your regulator is. The problem is not poor diving skills it is that octo holders are not reliable.

IMO, this is why the "proper diving skill", is to make sure your octo is always where it's supposed to be to begin with. If your octo goes somewhere, and you don't bring it back to where it's supposed to be, to me that is defined as "poor skill". You are supposed to have your octo in the proper place at all times and if you don't make sure that is the case, I would personally call that poor skills. Why? Well because you're not doing what you're supposed to do AKA keep octo in proper place at all time. If you octo comes loose, it's quite easy to notice that and quite easy to put it back where it belongs. If your octo holder is unreliable, "proper skill" means putting it back where it's supposed to be, if it comes loose.

Now you are getting into the realm of multiple failures, which have a very low probability of occurring.

That is my point! Multiple failures have a very low probability. However, with a combo, you don't need multiple failures to lose both octo and inflator, you only need one failure and that's it. The chance of one failure happening is greater than the chances of two. Therefore, needing two failures is preferable because 2 has a lower probability of occurring.

 

[OldNSalty]

I think the Air2 is one of those things that can work well depending on where you dive. In warm water rec diving I think it works just fine....but I sold both of mine and went to a bungied octo.

 

[Bob DBF]

I don't see how the philosophy is any different than a DIR/HOG setup using a short hose. In an emergency you always want to know where your regulator is. The problem is not poor diving skills it is that octo holders are not reliable.

The difference in philosophy with using a bunged backup is not that you know where it is, but that it is a few inches from your mouth where it would need to be in an emergency.

It is the octo holders that are the gimmick, most are made for maximum profit and not for reliability. I've always preferred cheap and functional and have not had problems.

And no I am not DIR, I do not always dive with a bunged backup, I have had a "Air2" type second on my rig, and sometimes I do not dive with a backup reg at all. I have a buddy that dives his BP/W with an Air 2, once had to use his short primary and hold a stop, no big deal.

The way I look at gimmicks is that the greater profits on those items can help keep the mundane gear I need at a reasonable price.


Bob

 

[ams511]

IMO, this is why the "proper diving skill", is to make sure your octo is always where it's supposed to be to begin with.

Your not getting it. At the time the Air 2 was developed there was no reliable way of holding the octo in place. All you had was those stupid holders that you stuffed a mouthpiece into, that only worked reasonably well with certain types of mouthpieces. Why should a diver need to continually keep reattaching the octo to the holder?

That is my point! Multiple failures have a very low probability. However, with a combo, you don't need multiple failures to lose both octo and inflator, you only need one failure and that's it. The chance of one failure happening is greater than the chances of two. Therefore, needing two failures is preferable because 2 has a lower probability of occurring.

At 0-24 dives, you are a new diver. As time goes on and you get more experience you will find that equipment failures are rarely out of the blue. Usually the gear gives some sort of indication that a failure is coming. However, you may have to look for it.

You really don't have a point. Your gear is completely independent from your buddies so if your inflator malfunctions it does not affect the probability of his regulator failing. SB is full of people that like to come up with what ifs. It is usual protocol to call a dive in the event of an equipment failure, so loss of the octo doesn't mean anything. Also in an Air 2 the inflator part and the regulator part are separate only sharing a common hose. So you would only lose the octo in the event you needed to disconnect the hose. If you didn't want to call the dive you could always use buddy breathing in the even your buddy needs air.

How many first stages do you use when diving? Most divers using single tanks only use one. If that malfunctions you lose everything.

---------- Post added October 14th, 2015 at 08:47 AM ----------

The difference in philosophy with using a bunged backup is not that you know where it is, but that it is a few inches from your mouth where it would need to be in an emergency.

From DIR-Diver:

If we have a problem we donate the only regulator we KNOW is working - the one we are breathing. That way we also know that we give away something that is safe to breath at that depth - important when you use multiple gases.


After donating our regulator we need something else to breath - our backup regulator. Since our backup is what we are going to use in an emergency we need to find it fast and we need to be sure that it is going to be there. Let's see how we can do that.

I do not have the fundies book handy but I believe it says something similar. As I mentioned before the Air 2 and DIR/Hog setup share a similar philosophy. Certainly in an emergency you know where your inflator is you know it is going to be there.

 

[jbomb001]

That is my point! Multiple failures have a very low probability. However, with a combo, you don't need multiple failures to lose both octo and inflator, you only need one failure and that's it. The chance of one failure happening is greater than the chances of two. Therefore, needing two failures is preferable because 2 has a lower probability of occurring.

This statement is a wash to me.. if you keep them separate then you need more then one failure but you also double the likelihood of failure by having 2 hoses and 4 connection points vs one hose and 2 connection points. And in a recreational diving atmosphere you are supposed to end any dive after a failure occurring anyway. "Or at least this is what I was taught". Secure the problem asap and head up in a controlled manner.
Also for argument sake let's say your inflator octo craps out "stuck inflate button or whatever " and you disconnect the hose. Now at this point you SHOULD be ending the dive "remember this is a rec dive" gear failed dive over. So what Is the likelihood of your buddy running ooa. While your already ending your dive ?? Not likely. If he or she runs ooa. You buddy breath to the surface that your already heading to anyway or they do a controlled emergency safe assent.

Oh as far as other things I find to be a gimmick I highly agree with putting the word tactical stealth or special in the title of any item to be a gimmick. Although I do like the look of some black finished regs and the like. .. still a gimmick though.

Sent from my galaxy S5 Active.

 

[seeker242]

Your not getting it. At the time the Air 2 was developed there was no reliable way of holding the octo in place. All you had was those stupid holders that you stuffed a mouthpiece into, that only worked reasonably well with certain types of mouthpieces. Why should a diver need to continually keep reattaching the octo to the holder?

Why? Because that's where it's supposed to be to reach in an emergency... Furthermore, how octo holders functioned in the past is irrelevant. How they function now is all that is relevant. I personally have absolutely no problems whatsoever keeping my separate octo in the proper place. Why does everyone else have so much trouble doing this, when me, the new diver who is apparently inexperienced, has no trouble at all? That's doesn't make any sense to me. It's extraordinarily easy to keep my octo in the proper place. I don't understand why people think this is so difficult. It's not difficult at all...

At 0-24 dives, you are a new diver. As time goes on and you get more experience you will find that equipment failures are rarely out of the blue. Usually the gear gives some sort of indication that a failure is coming. However, you may have to look for it.

I may be a new diver but I'm not stupid. I'm an accomplished engineer. Also, I'm not talking about the probability of my buddy's regulator failing. I'm talking about the probability of my regulator failure. Mathematics proves, without any doubt whatsoever, that a separate system is more reliable with regards to failures. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a mathematical proof. If you want to argue against mathematical proofs, yea, I guess you can do that if you want...

You really don't have a point. Your gear is completely independent from your buddies so if your inflator malfunctions it does not affect the probability of his regulator failing.

Just because you are making my point into a strawman, doesn't mean I don't have a point. My point has nothing to do with my buddies regulators to begin with.

SB is full of people that like to come up with what ifs. It is usual protocol to call a dive in the event of an equipment failure, so loss of the octo doesn't mean anything.

It does when you are already underwater, which is the context of my comments. If you take my comments out of context, you then start making a strawman.

How many first stages do you use when diving? Most divers using single tanks only use one. If that malfunctions you lose everything.

How many first stages there are is irrelevant to anything I've said.

---------- Post added October 14th, 2015 at 08:47 AM ----------

From DIR-Diver:

If we have a problem we donate the only regulator we KNOW is working - the one we are breathing. That way we also know that we give away something that is safe to breath at that depth - important when you use multiple gases.


After donating our regulator we need something else to breath - our backup regulator. Since our backup is what we are going to use in an emergency we need to find it fast and we need to be sure that it is going to be there. Let's see how we can do that.

I do not have the fundies book handy but I believe it says something similar. As I mentioned before the Air 2 and DIR/Hog setup share a similar philosophy. Certainly in an emergency you know where your inflator is you know it is going to be there.

And that is precisely why not keeping your octo in the proper place where it should be, is a "poor diving skill" to begin with. Why, because you need to find it fast in an emergency... Like I said before, me, the new diver, has absolutely no problem doing this. It's not even an issue...But apparently other people have issues doing this very simple skill of keeping their octo in the proper place...Why do they so much trouble doing this very simple skill? Hmm, good question!