Question When do we speak of technical diving ?

[steinbil]

If my experience of diving with a club instead of a commercial structure is applicable to BSAC, there is an assumption that you dive mainly with other people from your club (including your instructors), who know your skills and let you progress at your rhythm, progressively acquiring skills which are needed for the dives your club are doing. You may change club, but the new one will provide most of your buddies and its instructors will keep you progressing on a kind of companionship formation. You get formal tests to pass a certification, but most of the skill teaching is far less formal. (Teaching of theory was more formal, but they took advantage of opportunities provided by the weekly dives to reinforce it).

That's a totally different context than passing a certification while on vacation with an instructor you never met before and will probably not meet again after. You progress on a continuous sloop, you aren't climbing up steps.

At least that's the setting I was formed in. I presume @Angelo Farina come from something similar. My guess is that BSAC started there as well, but I'm not sure how much it has evolved, nor how much the two kinds are co-existing in it.

I think the type of learning that you describe, by gradually being exposed to appropriate challenges, surrounded by peers and mentors, is the best way of learning. In that sense I'm a fan of dive clubs and the BSAC model. Even so, within this model, I still think it's important to have some division or limits, where you need to show proficiency and experience before you can cross said limit.

I also dive in a club, but one that is not affiliated with any training agency, and does not certify divers. One thing I have noticed is that some more experienced members will sometimes encourage less experienced members to dive outside their training. That I think is a potential weakness with the dive club structure, if senior members don't take their role and the power dynamics into consideration, they could possibly make newer divers feel like they can't define their own limits or they might feel pressured to do things they don't feel comfortable with.

Edit:
With good role models, and mentors/instructors and an established safety culture I think the dive club model is the best environment for learning scuba and growing a community

 

[Gandalf-the-Diver]

The first rule of technical diving is you don’t talk about technical diving…





I’ve waited and waited for someone else to say this.

.... should that not actually read .... The first rule of technical diving club, is you don't talk about technical diving club.

 

[lexvil]

.... should that not actually read .... The first rule of technical diving club, is you don't talk about technical diving club.

That would be supposing it were a “club” if it were a “club” that couldn’t be discussed.

 

[JMarc]

Even so, within this model, I still think it's important to have some division or limits, where you need to show proficiency and experience before you can cross said limit.

Limits are important, and formal evaluation, are important. They are a way to limit complacency which is an issue with any system (driven by different incentives, but the issue is there). Another is the use of outside people to participate in the evaluation.

My main point when I started to participate in this discussion was to point out that there are several sane ways to put the limits in existence.

I also dive in a club, but one that is not affiliated with any training agency, and does not certify divers.

Lack of established standard of what to teach, lack of people trained to teach as well as trained to dive are potential issues here. It's still a good way to accumulate experience with some variety of people compared to always dive with the same buddy or with insta-buddy.

With good role models, and mentors/instructors and an established safety culture I think the dive club model is the best environment for learning scuba and growing a community

I always ask "for what purpose" when getting asked for what's the best something. In this case, the part about growing a community makes me agree with you. But the club context has its own constraints. The time frame is usually quite different (once or twice a week one hour sessions spread over a longer time, some training may be done once a year and if you are prevented to attend, you have to wait for next year) for instance, and the spacing between the session may reduce their effectiveness, there are advantages in a denser format as well.

 

[steinbil]

My main point when I started to participate in this discussion was to point out that there are several sane ways to put the limits in existence.

And my main point was that, in my opinion, the first step that fundamentally changes the activity of scuba diving - mentally, physically, emotionally - is taking away the option of going to the surface.

Going from 18m to 30m is an incremental step, not a big deal. Drysuit diving requires a little bit of skill, but is not a big deal. Nitrox is easy. Cold water increases complexity and risk, but not too much. Night diving or murky water also. Going into an overhead/deco - big step, fundamentally changes how you need to approach failures/problems. Panic or loss of control is much more deadly than before. Later steps like adding gas switches is also a big step, with added risk and complexity and possibly a higher skill gap, but it doesn't fundamentally change the way you approach diving*

If there is any one singular divide, that seems like an obvious choice to me.

*Yes, I know. Some agencies, like GUE, and BSAC it seems, will smooth out that transition in different ways, and maybe for those divers it will be a less fundamental change because they "start with the end in mind" or something to that effect, but even then I think it's the biggest step. Especially considering many (if not most) recreational divers are trained in a very different and less rigorous way.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I don't care what it's called, and the fact that it's being done doesn't make it a good idea. In my opinion you need the experience to know you can handle failures underwater, and you need to have enough dives to have had a few oh **** moments. I think 100 dives is a reasonable minimum, along with strict skill requirements, to start deco training.

IT's great to see your opinion that differs to a training agency. I was in a BSAC club for two years so trained and dived with the same regular divers in the club. We also did 2 hour classes twice a week at a pool so we could practice and re-practice techniques. BSAC trains your for the deco diving they do. It's not willy nilly ok let's just all go off diving to 40m on deco dives.

Have you ever had any BSAC club training? Totally different when you are with the same people in a club.
Certainly I agree that the more dives you have the better. I did PADI OW then maybe 20 dives then did BSAC Sports diving.
It was a challenge but life is full of challenges. I'm still diving so maybe some of that deco training deco diving I have done is good for when I go on basically resort diving with PADI ops. I enjoy them.
Some operations now have deco dives when they have staff ( usually an instructor ) who is deco trained and they have a couple of divers who are also deco trained and they plan a deco dive.

I do deco dives but I would never tell someone I am a technical diver because of that. Sports diver is what I call it as that's the training I was given.

 

[Gandalf-the-Diver]

That would be supposing it were a “club” if it were a “club” that couldn’t be discussed.

 

[happy-diver]

All this "training" is that where you take out the brain to make everyone the same in preparation for fighting

 

[Wibble]

All this "training" is that where you take out the brain to make everyone the same in preparation for fighting

It's odd but as soon as I jump in, I loose half of my IQ! Look out below it's Mr Thicko!

 

[steinbil]

GUE mingas for bringing 2 divers to the surface with a single AL80 cylinder would look like this:

60ft/20m: 920L = 90bar / 1200psi in AL80
130ft/40m: 2580L = 240bar / 3400psi in AL80

Just wanted to let you know I completely botched the calculation by taking panic into account twice, making it overly conservative. The standard estimate for SAC rate should be 20L/min. I didn't pick up on my error at first since I never dive single tanks. The correct numbers should be:

20m = 613L = 60bar in AL80
40m = 1720L = 160bar in AL80

This is with the metric calculation, the imperial version might give very slightly different numbers, but nothing significant.

And I stand by the comment that a single AL80 to 40m is an interesting choice with these gas requirements.