Why do the LDS's take it????

[Otter]

Hey Otter,
I'd be surprised if your pockets were deep will be deep enough to survive You're going to have to have quite a few "educated" customers who don't go for the spin, abuse, and other tactics that have worked so long for the LDS's.

I wouldn't spin or use any of the standard tactics seen today....I'd give em the benefit of my views...what equipment works best regardless of whether I carry it or not. Obviously, I would try to include what I consider the best would be, but if the manufacturer wouldn't cooperate, then I would suggest the customer either buy online (and provide a kiosk) or another shop in the area.

Is $35 for an airfill fair? If not, why not?

 

[Buoyant1]

This topic is going to be beaten to death day after day year after year!

I've gone to several options for equipment...

I initially bought my personal gear at Diver Direct while in Key West...

I picked up a new mask at Diver's Direct in Dania Beach, FL.

I picked up my 3mm wetsuit from Leisure Pro (because my LDS didn't stock any in my size)

I bought my computer at Leisure Pro (because at the time my LDS didn't carry them at that time)

I bought my BCD and Reg set up at my LDS, (because they service what they sell, don't service what they DON'T sell, and I felt that it was good to support them)

I bought a reg bag from ScubaToys (they had exactly what I wanted)

I bought a 7mm wetsuit at Leisure Pro (my LDS still doesn't carry larger suits)

I recently bought a hood, gloves and spring straps from the LDS during their anniversary sale/celebration...I bought the straps and one of the guys told me to bring my fins by some night and he'll make sure they are the right size...but buy them on sale today, and we'll just swap them out if they're the wrong size...good thing I picked up straps that were too big, and we tried the next size down, then the next, and they fit!

With someone online I would have had to return them, TWICE...(however with the wetsuits, in both cases I ordered two sizes, tried them both, and sent back the suit that didn't fit.)

In essence, you should support who you can, everyone won't have everything that you need always, but keeping a good relationship with a local shop is good because they have a good follow up service pattern. I was able to test and configure my gear before a dive trip at one of their classes, I plan on taking further classes from them, AND plan on joining them for weekend (and maybe the occasional weekday) dives!

Maybe sometimes the equipment is a bit more expensive (although at their sale it was MUCH cheaper than LP!) but the after the sale service is what keeps me going back...trust me, if they didn't treat me like their best customer each time I went in there, I would consider other options, but they treat me great!!!

Just my opinion

 

[PerroneFord]

Theres a couple of problems here:

#2. I'd suspect the the larger and more successful companies TEND to be pushy. Customers generally come in to buy what they've seen in the magazines. That means you are going to be carrying some pushy manufacturer's stuff.

#3 contradicts what you said in the last paragraph. You cannot "sell in volume" if you "keep inventory low".

#5 Catering to all kinds of divers drives inventory WAY up. For every jacket BC you have, you are going to carry 3-4 sizes and keep 3-4 sets of each in stock. If you carry a couple of brands, and a few women's specific, you're going be be stocking dozens of BCs alone.

#6 Smaller manufacturer stuff is essentially unknown. Who the heck is gonna buy a Photon Torpedo or a Scout, when they see Pelican an UK in every magazine, and on every boat?

#9 People want what the advertisers TELL them they want. Who is going to want a regulator made in England when they can get a US Divers made right here in America?


Personally, if I was running a dive shop, I'd spend some time doing a good market study. I'd spend hours in the other local shops. I'd try to gauge the type of diving done in the area and primarly stock gear to cater to that crowd. I'd have a rotating schedule of manufacturer demo days at least once per month. I'd have an affinity program to reward my most loyal customers. I'd spend some time learning about the customer base and the routes to popular diving spots and try to position my store en-route to those diving locales with easy access from all four directions. I'd liason with instructors, and dive operators within 300 miles to become the hub of the customers experience, and take them vertically from equipment purchase, to instruction, to dive opportunity and keep my finger in the pie at each step. I'd do free air-fills for affinity customers and reduced Nitrox/Trimix fills for them as well.

If marketing teaches us anything its that you must know your customer, you must give them what they want even if they don't KNOW what they want, and you must make them feel special and welcome.

Just my $.02

What I would do if I was running an LDS:

2. never deal with manufacturers who try to push a lot of inventory on you that you can't move.

3. only stock items that move. keep the inventory low. ebay anything which doesn't move. skip gimmicky crap.

5. cater to all kinds of divers. i'd start with making sure I took care of the DIR divers, but i wouldn't have a problem with selling bungee wings, split fins or AI computers. the AI computers are going to be high margin, which keeps me in business. for online websites, i'd have different virtual storefronts for DIR divers, other tech divers, cold water rec divers, and warm water vacation divers.

6. stock and resell popular smaller mfgr stuff like DSS backplates, FredT BPs, oxycheq O2 sensors, photon torpedo backup lights, etc. all stuff which moves and doesn't sit in inventory though.

9. carry what people want. scubapro and apeks regs, DUI drysuits, etc.

For everything above, the margins are squeezed. The only way you are going to make money is by selling volume. In order to sell volume, you're going to have to attract a lot of different customers, which means you'll need a lot of selection, but that will push up your inventory costs. Initially target different diving enthusiasts and stock what they want and cater to them really well.

 

[RonFrank]

First off, many LDS's are doing well, and many/most? divers (especially newbies) do NOT know about internet pricing.

At my LDS (which I like very much BTW) I'd guess that 90% or more of the students who take OW (maybe 1000 certified annually) purchase thier personal equipment from the LDS before two pool sessions have passed. So do the math, they are charging about 10% over MSRP for most personal gear, then knock 15% off MSRP for students. The mask is going to run $55-60, the snorkel $25-30, and the fins a whopping $140-160. Add some booties, and with their markup, they are likely netting serious cash in doing business this way. So why would they change that?

As for price fixing from the manufacture, my understanding is that's not legal, or done. They price fix because that is what they choose to do. There are rules about advertised pricing, and in the Denver area, price fixing among the retailers seems to be a fact as all the LDS's pricing on similar items is almost exactly the same.

As for LeasurePro, they do not purchase directly from the manufactures in most cases. In fact they purchase from the LDS's. Ironic no? They basically find an authorized dealer to work with, and they offer to purchase X number of BCD's at a cost. The LDS's uses LP purchase power to get the volume to lower their costs.

This goes against the manufactures agreement, but is hard for the manufacture to detect or control.

In any event, there are several LDS's in our area that are doing very well indeed. The fact that I shared the local dive site the weekend with no less than 40 students from two LDS's mostly doing OW tells volumes about their training success. And one shop was there just two weeks previous with students as well, so they are busy busy.

Some quick math, and between the two shops they grossed over 12K for what amounts to 4 days of training.

The LDS I use treats me well as I've done my training with them even if I have not purchased all my equipment there.

 

[jonnythan]

As for LeasurePro, they do not purchase directly from the manufactures in most cases. In fact they purchase from the LDS's. Ironic no? They basically find an authorized dealer to work with, and they offer to purchase X number of BCD's at a cost. The LDS's uses LP purchase power to get the volume to lower their costs.

How do you know this?

 

[MikeFerrara]

How do you know this?

I'm pretty sure that's the case because I had places like LP approach me when I owned a shop. When I closed the shop and was trying to sell things off I contacted LP. They weren't interested because I didn't have any large quantities of any one thing but told me that they would have been interested if I had large numbers of one reg, bc or whatever. They just didn't want to mess with the onesy twosy stuff I had. If they go through the trouble of adding something to their website/inventory they want to have a bunch of it.

 

[DrSteve]

Some quick math, and between the two shops they grossed over 12K for what amounts to 4 days of training.

The LDS I use treats me well as I've done my training with them even if I have not purchased all my equipment there.

It's funny you say that, as the LDS' here only charge 100-150 for a course and they are always saying how they lose money on the course. I'll use numbers I can justify...let's say the instructor gets paid 10/hour (and most claim they get more like 5), it's about 6h of class time and about 10h of pool time plus 6h total at a quarry (student pays their own entrance fee, instructors are free). Pool hire is about 25/hour. Classes are taught at the shop, so no overhead. Air fills, minimal cost. Say 500. I have no idea how much SSI charges for the basic student kit, but I know they retail them (if they charge) at about $35 (our LDS, gives the kit, but doesn't include a log book which they make you buy). So to train one student it's about 550 dollars. That means if you train 6 in a class you have broken even. Add in the personal equipment they will buy and you are making profit.

The way I see it is LDS want to make it sound like they are doing badly to guilt you into buying from them. It's ironic I paid a lot more and got a lot more out of my graduate degrees, but no way would I recommend those schools (despite their high rankings). When they call me pleading poverty I politely tell them where to get off. So why should I deal with the same BS from a shop which is a *for profit* outfit? They are making money, otherwise they wouldn't be in the business. If they claim they are making their money from diving services (boat cleaning etc.,) then perhaps they should shut the shop and stick to what earns them the money.

 

[Hemlon]

My area has several dive shops. The one that I am most familiar with has good and bad points:

Good:

Two employees who really take the time and effort to make sure the customer gets what they need. (One is ex-military and just awesome!)

Two locations

Very convenient class schedules

Bad:

The owner is just plain rude. Their website boasts "price matching...including online ads" but when I took in a print-out of LeisurePro items/prices, I was treated VERY rudely by the owner. His wife is very nice, but he needs to work on his people-skills.


Inflated prices

The moral of the story? I take classes and purchase air there, but my big purchases (and there have been lots of them) are at ScubaToys. IMHO, THEY have the best of both worlds: A store where one can touch/handle the merchandise...and GREAT prices.

 

[TorontoDive]

First off, many LDS's are doing well, and many/most? divers (especially newbies) do NOT know about internet pricing.

I'd have to disagree with this point here. Before I had even stepped into the classroom I had read as much as I could on this board and in fact was well prepared for the material. In this day and age of "Googling" everything - and I mean everything, internet pricing is probably checked from the armchair convenience before making the drive to the LDS. Maybe it's time for change and adaptation?

 

[scuba-charters]

As to the manufacturers...

I am a dive charter business. I have several accounts with some great manufacturers. I don't have a shop, but do need alot of equipment for repairs/replacements/rental/employees. I checked out these manufacturers before I decided to deal with them, and have absolutely enjoyed their help. My manufacturers/distributors are Dive Rite, H2Odyssey, and Marine Sports.

At DEMA this year, I tried to sign up for classes in regulator repair from other manufacturers that I don't have accounts with. The only one that didn't give me the "you aren't a dealer" speech wanted to charge $65 for the 3 hour class to be able to repair their equipment for their customers. It made no difference when I explained to them that I'm a dive shop on the edge of the rainforest in central america. So... if your LDS has some type of attitude, I believe it might be a roll down thing at times.

I'm doing everything I can not to become a LDS, but this appears more and more unlikely (no other LDS within 4 hours away). When it does happen, these guys will be my brands...