Why I'm not impressed with LDS

[Rick Inman]

... I contacted ScubaToys and got one within a couple of days with no muss or fuss. Thank you ScubaToys. ...

Well now, there might be a message here...eyebrow

 

[DivingCRNA]

You really need to think about this folks. I would imagine the good LDS outnumber the bad ones but words like this kick them all just as hard. There are some very good online resources, but if the LDS continue to close as the statistics say they are, we're all in for a big shock

So, are you saying that we should support BAD local dive shops just for the ideal of "supporting you local dive shop". Should I buy gear that I do not like because the LDS carries it? Should I put up with crappy service just because it is from the LDS?

Maybe the advent of online gear purchasing will lead to the crappy shops getting weeded out. Maybe the crappy shops will clean up their act.

I really do wish that I had a local shop that stocked zeagle and BP/W set-ups and a selection of dry suits. I would love to have good instructors that see themselves as more than other agency bashing hand holders. But I do not have that. I will continue to vote with my wallet until I do.

 

[SNaslund]

Well, I have tried three LDSs in the area and have browsed several others. From this sampling I can put them into two categories. Small guys that have no selection and big guys was seem pretty arrogant. If I have to travel a zillion miles to find a good guy then he is not exactly local anymore. I have no real problem with LDS closings because free enterprise works. If they give good service, they will stay in business. If they don't they will be gone. There will always be some market for an LDS because of training and air fills and such. If the bad ones are gone, you are opening an opportunity for someone that knows how to run a business. Note that nowhere am I complaining about pricing. I expect to pay more at a local LDS and I do not buy equipment based on price very much because when you really look at the margin between cheap and expensive dive gear it makes no sense to cut corners. All I want is service and someone who realizes that lives depend on what they do.

 

[Lead_carrier]

The unfortunate part of the LDS vs Internet arguments are that the bad LDS's are the ones that get the publicity. It is kind of like the kids of today. 95% are great kids, but the 5% that are bad get all the publicity.

In the area that I'm in we have 5 dive shops that are local to me. Only 1 would I put in the no way catagory, 2 in the good but not my favorites, and 2 in the I do trust them with my life catagory.

Theres no way everyone can be satisfied with their LDS's but please don't figure all of us are bad just because some are. Even ScubaToys is clasified as an LDS for some people.

 

[SNaslund]

ScubaToys seems like a good example of an Internet business that provides more than price. I see the ownership online giving advice and being a part of the community. They also have a brick location for those lucky enough to be close enough.

I hope I did send a message regarding ScubaToys because they deserve the good rep they have from what I can see.

 

[RonFrank]

You really need to think about this folks. I would imagine the good LDS outnumber the bad ones but words like this kick them all just as hard. There are some very good online resources, but if the LDS continue to close as the statistics say they are, we're all in for a big shock

It would be interesting to actually see some statistics on LDS's closings, new LDS openings, marketshare of Online Scuba retailers, etc. I keep hearing about LDS closures with the primary reasons generally stated as Online competition.

I also read horror stories about LDS's. This is NOT just about pricing policies, but often poor customer service, and the expectation that people will support the LDS in retail sales or the dive shop will refuse to support the customer. The original poster here was not complaing about prices, but rather poor and unsafe rental equipment, and failure to handle the recall of a VERY expensive computer prior to the customer getting impacted. That's hardly LDS bashing in the name of Online pricing?

To me this all sounds strange in that I'm in an area (Denver) where we have over a dozen LDS's, and while the retail prices may not be competitive obviously they are thriving by offering quality customer service and training.

Maybe in a much smaller market things are different, but it seems to me that the LDS's in smaller markets pay much less overhead, and could put together a business model to take advantage of the net. My LDS is now selling over the internet, and it would be interesting to hear what their anti-internet pitch has now become that was standard in the OW classes. :11doh:

 

[HarryWhisman]

I expect to pay more at a local LDS.

Why??? It doesn't seem to work that way with anything else. Try buying a good lawn mower on line and see how much money you save. Try to save some bucks on a chain saw, a car or a TV. My experience has been that most of the time the shipping cancels out any advantage you get on line. There are exceptions of course. Some I have found include boat motor parts, pressure washer stuff and unfortunately sometimes scuba stuff.

I expect any retailer to be price competitive and in the end, I suspect they will have to be in order to keep the doors open. The INTERNET is here to stay.

 

[Bobbin-along]

It's not necessarily appropriate for there to be arguments about LDS vs. IDS when in all actuality there are 3 types of resources for the scuba market. There are local single point of presence shops that have chosen according to their business plan and goals to maintain one presence (a storefront) for it's clientele, there are local multi-point of presence shops that have multiple stores that may include an Internet presence for e-commerce, and third are the Internet only POP's with no local access or live retail space for consumers.

The local presence, single POP's that I have spoken with find the Internet an evil place filled with evil people who sell things online. They also don't care for a local store that sells online or has multiple locations. Apparently multiple-site owners are evil capitalist pigs too based on the trash talking I have heard. Most of the single POP's are small and have been caught in the cycle of high markup-low product churn which is almost impossible to break without some creative work. The higher the prices (bigger the margins) the fewer the customers, the fewer the customers the higher the margins have to be to stay in business. They work hard to make service and customer care the priority to justify their MSRP or above MSRP pricing. Larger single POP's with lots of product, pricing flexibility, and good retail space fare better, but still don't have the ability, interest, or desire to push harder on the market share.

Local presence, multiple POP's are by far the most flexible by embracing the live retail space desired by so many while being able to capture a piece of the Internet market share. Most of the guys who run these types of businesses that have stayed in the marketplace (Scubatoys, Dive Sports, etc.) have solid business plans that are based on modest margins and lots of product turnover. They by far have the ability to adapt to the marketplace as consumer demands change over time.

Internet only locations are subject to the usual weaknesses of e-commerce. Customer confidence has to be built early, prices have to be very competitive, and products have to be what the market demands in order to be successful.

We rely on LDS for service, quick repairs, air, classes, and a social place to gather, and for that most people are reasonable in purchases to help support their locations. However it is relatively unreasonable for a LDS to assume that someone is going to spend 275 USD on a pair of twin jet fins, or 150 USD on a Mares X-Vision mask. Puh-leaze. The arguments that internet is cheaper to run and thus "unfair" is not accurate either. Guys like Scubatoys have to do the retail space plus the internet e-commerce costs and they seem to be doing well. It's about the business plan, the market, and common sense.

 

[JustinW]

Just wanted to respond to your gripes, a few pieces that you may not have known, some you just might not have considered.
1. Your LDS provides great instructors, try finding great instructors when the shop closes.
3. Is it possible that this one just fell through the cracks, I know how it is to do inventory and miss things, only to have them reappear later. If its a small shop this isn't likely but not knowing the shop, I have to give them the benefit of doubt.
4. UK lights always come with the batteries already in them, so this isn't a sign that it was used, or returned. Now a quality control issue that slipped through UK, thats possible but having the batteries installed isn't a sign of being used, just a sign of being a UK light.

Just some things to consider, not that it changes things. Also note as others have said, Scubatoys is a LDS also, they just happen to sell online too. Problem is, airfills are a PITA to get via e-mail or UPS.

 

[Kat]

I would imagine the good LDS outnumber the bad ones but words like this kick them all just as hard.

Really? Why?
If I'm happy with my LDS, there is no way someone elses bad experience would make me leave my LDS. I can not imagine anyone doing that.

There are some very good online resources, but if the LDS continue to close as the statistics say they are, we're all in for a big shock

I'm not in for the shock, it's the LDS that is in for the shock. I am happy to see those crappy LDS go under. It drives a percentage of the business to the LDS that are good.