Work permit situation and a ramble

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You see, that´s the difference!
European instructors and DMs would not survive in this business with that attitude. A competent DM or instructor must realize that is job is something special. Having responsibility for the life of a customer, making the most valued time of the year for them special, being interested in constantly expanding and updating your own knowledge (diving theory is a developing "science"), being able to teach, using the proper educational methods (actually there are CMAS ITCs which you can only pass if you attend pedagogical seminars and read mantadory educational literature), having a broad knowledge of diving in a variety of conditions (what would an egyptian DM or instructor answer, if ask by a beginner about diving in cold or fresh water or even under ice, in caves or generally in other destinations - beginners ask all kind of questions). If a european instructor lacks in those areas, a proper center would fire him without hesitation or nor employ him in the first place - try doing that to an egyptian, he would cry "unfair, rasicm" etc.).

The value of the job is not the complexity of the job. When I say it's not rocket science, I mean it's not as complex. This has nothing to do with neither its absolute value nor one's recognition of this value.

No, being a diving professional is definitely no a blue collar job like cleaning a hotel room. But of course that only applies, if you have to correct attitude towards what you are doing and are not doing it only for monetary reasons. For an egyptian, being a DM is a very high paying job. That´s an amount he can make per month he can not make in any other job that easily without higher education. For any european, working as a DM or even instructor is a measly paid hobby which most of them have taken up out of enthusiasm. Most of them could make much more money in a lot of fields, working in their home countries. The picture that some try to paint, that all europeans working in the diving industry in Egypt are unemployed, low class people who couldn´t find a proper job in Europe is absolutely wrong and an insult!

As per the certification agency standards, it's definitely a blue collar job. You can become a DM with no particular formal education, in a month or so. Even if it doesn't make you a good DM, it still makes you a dive "professional", at least according to the standards of the guys who put the standards! BTW, you even mentioned "wages" in one of your previous posts. Blue collars get wages, white collars get salaries.

I say it again: as long as there are not enough egyptians with the same level of competence as we can find in the tousands of european DMs or instructors (and there are many, many europeans applying for a job that are rejected for the above stated reasons), substituting foreigners with egyptians will decrease the level of quality of the industry here. That´s not racism or arrogance - that´s unfortunately a fact. I also say again, to make that very clear, if there are enough egyptians on the required level of professionalism, I am all for giving them the jobs, because it would actually make more sense businesswise. Most owners are no fools. They make decisions not based on some obscure reasons, but rather based on a logical approach. Hiring egyptians would be easier, less hassle in terms of bureaucracy and even less expensive, because you would not have to pay them tickets etc. on top of a salary. Mind you, that has nothing to do with equal pay for equal work, it´s just additional costs any european generates. And still there is the question of language skills...

I agree; most of the owners are no fools, but are no aces either. The smart manager (I know some of those) invests in the locals, and they know it'll definitely pay off. They train the locals up to the required standard and create loyal local staff. Now that's an invaluable asset. On the other hand, to make it crystal clear, a small operation that can't even hire 10 Egyptians, what benefit should the country expect from that? No one is asking small operations to close their doors, but just to adhere to the laws.

BTW, this law has been there since ever. It's not new. What happened is that it was not put into action before. Now as a foreign investor, one should know exactly what the labor laws and regulations (among others) of the country one's going to invest in say. Failing to do so is the investor's OWN responsibility. Investors should have known that this is a threat (in business terms). They should have taken measures to minimize the impact of this threat should it have developed into crisis, which is what the smart managers mentioned above did. On the other hand, people who say we came here because we're enthusiasts, love diving, etc. and by the way we get better pay in our home land, might be suitable for running the business daily issues. But on the strategic management level, they are just not up to the expected.
 
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With regard to the employment ratio - the ratio applies to the number of employees of the enterprise as a whole, not just the dive centre. The small independent centres are almost entirely Egyptian, a medium sized operator will have more Egpytians employed as drivers, equipment technicians, tank boys as well as DMs and instructors and therefore they are able to apply for foreign work permits.

The really big centres are all owned by larger co-operations or hotels, so foreign work permit ratios are not an issue, because there's a few hundred other staff employed by the umbrella company.

I'm all for the education of the locals to a higher quality of diving standard because sadly, I see a lot of improvement necessary - but then it HAS improved significantly over the last few years. The CDWS is not everybody's favourite organisation and yes, it is (or possibly was) run by dive center owners and for sure there is (or was) a great deal of money being quietly shuffled here and there. That's how it works here. That's also how it works in Europe, actually, just it's hidden better by people with clever words and shiny suits. But, the CDWS did try to make some genuine changes to safety and environmental preservation, however it was funded.

And if I was told I had to attend Arabic classes as a condition of my work permit - I would not think this was unfair.

The attitude in the quote that macrobubble posted does, sadly exist, and I think you could compare it to the level of people in - for example - the UK, who would like to see pakistanis, africans, chinese (maybe not them because we love chinese food), polish people, scottish people, whatever, thrown off the island. There is a minority who want them all out, there is a growing population of native British people who are uncomfortable with the massive influx of foreign workers. France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the same.

That attitude is reflected in Sharm but here it's on a smaller scale. One thing I think is true though is the sentiment that the dive industry is just a "blue collar job". I spoke with one of my Egpytian instructor colleagues about this protest movement and he actually e-mailed the group to ask them to take it easy because throwing the foreigners out might actually lead to an overall loss in income when people start to stop coming here. For sure it will work out in the long run, but nobody cares about the long term, the immediate question is "where is my next paycheck coming from", and he has a point, I think.

He told me that I have to understand that most Egyptians actually do it just as a job. Yes, some are very good at it, many love what they do more than some foreign instructors I could mention. But - a lot of them don't. The people who are delivering the rhetoric in macrobubble's post about "wiping out your mates" are, indeed, some of the blue-collar workers of the dive industry and I think they don't really understand the bigger picture. For some, the money is the main focus and yes, the Egpytian staff are often doing it to feed a family, but foreigners do it because they love it (for sure we don't do it for the money!)

Let's also not forget, the whole country just changed. What was effectively a military-led dictatorship in a different kind of pin-striped uniform has been replaced by a military "interim" caretaker government that have so far been very lenient in their attitude to outspoken protest. In January, it was the people versus the Mubarak regime. Now it's the people versus the army.

If Mubarak had one good legacy to leave the country, it would be stability in a region with, to be fair, unfriendly neighbours, and i have high hopes that everything will work out fine in the end, and it's nice, for a change, that people have a voice to be heard, much as we might disagree with it.

I'm willing to take a chance and see how it all works out; I'm starting to settle here, almost 2 years now; I'm in a good position and already have a work permit. And I still love it. I do have my concerns about what the future holds, because I really don't want to leave, but we all have to give the dust from the revolution a chance to settle. Business was hit *hard*, and the repercussions are still being felt - even the big name centres had to tighten their belts (we're really not as rich as one might think) and there is still a distinct lack of tourists from certain countries that some centres rely on.

For sure it's picking up here in Sharm - but not as quickly as it needs to, in some cases. We wait and see....

Well that was a lot longer than intended but malesh! :D

C.
 
I'll put in my five cents here, as a customer and still not very experienced diver, fluent Arabic speaker who lived in Egypt several years and covered the revolution in Libya and Cairo as a journalist....

First of all, it's easy to paint things in black and white. Regarding the quality of dive masters and dive centers, I don't think the issue is if peopel are Egyptians or not as such.

I'm sure there are also dive masters and instructors from Europe who are less than inspired, do the same kind of course dives every week and does not challenge themselves.

I expect the guys I dive with to be diving because they love to dive. They should constantly challenge themselves and dive at least one level higher than what they teach. I've met divers with this attitude in Egypt and I know there are Egyptians who think and dive in this way.

But my impression was still that for many Egyptians this is "just a job". Like one guy put it to me: "This is not something I would do for fun".

Now this was a great guy, a reasonably good diver and fun to get along with, but I might also dive with him as a Dive Master in the future, but it's less than ideal, to be sure.

He for sure is much better than the yob doing his DM internship getting drunk and staying up until 03 AM every night and arriving hung over for the dive the next day.

I unfortuanetly had the feeling he was not the only guy thinking like this and quite frankly, it's a shame.

I have no proposal for an easy fix, and I'm not sure more or less foreign workers would help much. Fortunately there are divers and dive centers who hold much higher standards simply because they love diving.
 
Besides, the red sea is like diving in a swimming pool anyway :wink:

Spend winter and spring guiding clients on liveaboards at the Brothers (for instance) and you will have a different opinion about the Red Sea.

As Red Sea Shadow says, languages are by far the main issue.

And among foreigners, Dutch instructors - for example - who very often speak fluently English, German and French (plus their own language for other Dutchmen and clients from Belgium) are way more interesting for a dive center than English-only speaking Westerners. Or Russians that speak fluent English (that exists) and can learn quickly some other language.

It's also an asset to speak decent Arabic. Think about it. It's worth being able to talk with an Egyptian captain, zodiac deckhand, or pickup driver, who often don't speak that much English. It's very useful, for example to be dropped at the right place at the right divesite. Egyptians do speak Arabic, most Brits I know don't.

Also the Egyptian usually don't drink much beer. I consider it an asset (some may disagree).
 
Spend winter and spring guiding clients on liveaboards at the Brothers (for instance) and you will have a different opinion about the Red Sea.

Totally missed the sarcasm there mate.

I don't believe speaking several languages automatically makes a person a good instructor. They are 2 distinct qualities.
And the level of fluency is also arbitrary. Can a person really give detailed technical explanations on the OW course when required, or can they merely brief the skills in the language? There's a lot to to think about.
 
Totally missed the sarcasm there mate.

I don't believe speaking several languages automatically makes a person a good instructor. They are 2 distinct qualities.
And the level of fluency is also arbitrary. Can a person really give detailed technical explanations on the OW course when required, or can they merely brief the skills in the language? There's a lot to to think about.

Speaking languages does not make a person a good instructor, but it makes them a valuable instructor. Some centres will hire crappy staff just because they speak necessary languages, some centres will only hire good instructors... but good instructors with multiple languages, employment guaranteed.

Some outfits require a full body shot in swimwear with the application. Some dive centres hire staff based on looks, not languages or proven prior excellence. Got blonde hair blue eyes, big boobies or a washboard stomach and like to wear a small bikini? Hired.

My dive centre also requires excellence, and I am living proof that they will hire some butt-smegging ugly instructors! :D

The overriding factor is of course money - but it also makes sense, If your dive centre of choice caters to german, russian, italian and spanish people, what's the point in hiring an english language only instructor? Most people from those countries can speak english anyway.

So for some instructors it's about the language, for some it's about the looks. For many, it's about the diving, not the cover of the book.

There are many instructors, regardless of nationality, who saw diving as a fun job, and then fell in love with it. I earn money to dive, of course, that's what I do for a job, but that is not not the only reason I do it.

This is not restricted to Egypt - it's worldwide, and the requirements for employment in some locations are ridiculous. Interns at my CDC in Thailand would apply for jobs before starting their IDC and were told: "when you pass your IE, there's a job waiting for you". No other questions asked - you will be an OWSI, we need OWSIs...

Sometimes that's how it works. Don't shoot the messenger.

C.
 
Some outfits require a full body shot in swimwear with the application. Some dive centres hire staff based on looks, not languages or proven prior excellence. Got blonde hair blue eyes, big boobies or a washboard stomach and like to wear a small bikini? Hired.



.

So true.

the PADI classifieds must be the only job board in the world where discrimination is not policed; I'm not talking languages here, literally adverts like
Female MSDT required for {where-ever}

How does that make any sense? Why not just advertise for an MSDT and then just pick a female applicant, rather than out and out sexism.

NB my washboard stomach and boy-band looks never got me any jobs.. :depressed:
 
The thing is - I can feel it here now. I feel a little let down that I followed the revolution closely. believed in it, lost work and money and friends because of it; went and danced in the streets when it all ended...

...and the end result is a campaign to drive my friends and I out of here. Yay.

You've got to be kidding me :D
My friends who are Egyptian divemasters and instructors can hardly pay their rent, can hardly afford to put food on the table, can not afford to go to a dentist and dream all day of leaving Egypt to work in the west to improve their living situation.
And you're feeling sorry for yourself, give me a break!
 
You've got to be kidding me :D
My friends who are Egyptian divemasters and instructors can hardly pay their rent, can hardly afford to put food on the table, can not afford to go to a dentist and dream all day of leaving Egypt to work in the west to improve their living situation.
And you're feeling sorry for yourself, give me a break!

You´ve got to be kidding me!
A divemaster makes around 400 €/month plus commissions, a freelancer around 25 €/day! That amounts to an average monthly salary in excess of 500.- € or roughly 4200.- egyptian pounds! Show me another job in Egypt where a guy can earn that kind of money as easily! How does a guy cleaning hotel rooms or serving tables make a living on 500 - 800 pounds paid by his egyptian employer? How does a teacher with less than 1000 pounds do it? If you feel sorry for egyptian divemasters and instructors (who make even more!), how do you feel about the rest of the work force? Give me a break!
 
You´ve got to be kidding me!
A divemaster makes around 400 €/month plus commissions, a freelancer around 25 €/day! That amounts to an average monthly salary in excess of 500.- € or roughly 4200.- egyptian pounds! Show me another job in Egypt where a guy can earn that kind of money as easily! How does a guy cleaning hotel rooms or serving tables make a living on 500 - 800 pounds paid by his egyptian employer? How does a teacher with less than 1000 pounds do it? If you feel sorry for egyptian divemasters and instructors (who make even more!), how do you feel about the rest of the work force? Give me a break!

Where and is it every single month? The where question so that we can calculate expenses. For example rent in Sharm is very different from Dahab.

Now where exactly did I say I do not sympathize with others who can not make a living? The discussion is about diving and divers. Wake up and smell the caffeine.
And what an illogical argument to justify the low wages of dive professional.
 
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