Work permit situation and a ramble

[macrobubble]

And what an illogical argument to justify the low wages of dive professional.

I´m not justifying anything, I´m just stating facts.

 

[Crowley]

You've got to be kidding me
My friends who are Egyptian divemasters and instructors can hardly pay their rent, can hardly afford to put food on the table, can not afford to go to a dentist and dream all day of leaving Egypt to work in the west to improve their living situation.
And you're feeling sorry for yourself, give me a break!

I'm not feeling sorry for myself at all. I choose to work here knowing all the facts, and because I love it here. I am not trying to martyr myself to the "penniless travelling dive instructor" motif because if I didn't want to do this, and I didn't believe in what I do, I would have left, like many staff, several months ago.

The Egyptian instructors and DMs at my centre are paid exactly the same as the foreigners, so if an Egyptian dive centre is not paying their Egyptian staff as well, then that is an issue to be discussed between the employee and the employer.

And as for hardly affording to pay the rent? Not being able to afford the dentist? It's not just Egyptians! I don't have financial backing, I live off what I earn and if my landlord had not very kindly reduced the rent for two months I would have had to leave the country because I would not have been able to afford the rent for the extra month. I lived on a very small budget.

But as I say - I'm not complaining or feeling sorry for myself - in fact I don't think my previous post even suggests that I do. What I feel let down by is a small, but concerted effort to get rid of all foreign staff, and in some cases we do indeed earn more money than the local staff, and macrobubble's financial numbers are very similar to mine, but also our living expenses are much higher. Sorry, but in Egypt there is one price for foreigners and a different price for locals. That's all fine by me.

I am very sorry that some of your Egyptian friends are not earning enough money to feed a family; the money I earn myself would not feed a family either, but that is my choice. One of the most wonderful things about freedom is the ability to choose, and this is something that Egypt is only just learning about. Perhaps if those people who treat diving as a blue-collar job became more interested and more passionate about the underwater world, they would get better jobs at bigger dive centres. We need people like that.

Just thoughts.

C.

 

[Crowley]

double post deleted - apologies for any inconvenience.

 

[Ste Wart]

Just thinking back.

The tank boys at Fantasea Dive Centre in Dahab were on about 300 LE a month, I think that's a round $50.
The counter guy (who basically ran the place) got 1200 LE a month.

Basic Instructor commission in Dahab are (unless they've changed)

OW - 80 - 100euros or 672 - 840LE
AOW - 60 euros -504LE
Guided Dive 10-12 Euro 84-90 LE

So with one OW course, you can support a tank boy for 2 months.

The wages for instructors are very good by Egyptian standards. Most of the Egyptian instructors I know left their jobs as bank clerks etc, because the potential to generate income as an Instructor far surpassed anything they could reasonably hope for.
Sure there are periods of inactivity, I remember sitting around for practically all of May 2009 watching my savings dwindle, while my friends and Girlfriend managed to get work. But these are the risks you take with commission based employment.

 

[elmagnoon]

Perhaps if those people who treat diving as a blue-collar job became more interested and more passionate about the underwater world, they would get better jobs at bigger dive centres. We need people like that.

My point was that the concern should always be for Egyptians. What I would've liked to see is a program of some sort that balances between employing foreigners and raising the skill level of Egyptians. A dive center would hire a foreign dive instructor for example and part of the agreement would be to dedicate certain hours per week to train Egyptians. Hire a foreign counter persons who has to spend two four hours a week teaching his language to Egyptian staff. Egyptian staff will also have to be employed on the conditions that they engage in skill development. Of course this would have to be a government initiative since most business foreign or specially Egyptian owned would not care to do that.
Something to improve the community not to merely profit and consume and be done.

One thing that I really would love to see gone is tips. The dive centers I know, rely heavily on tips paid to divemasters and center staff. The cleaner, the guy who fills the tanks and the one who washes the equipment and the rest of them, get so very little wage that they rely on tips to supplement their income. I heard them often discussing how one group left only 200LE after a week of diving and the couple who didn't leave anything and so on. I heard the same from divemasters. It looks to me like the owners of those centers shifted the burden of paying reasonable living wages to the customer who in most cases has no clue how much to leave if anything and with all honesty I don't think the customer should leave anything at all.

 

[macrobubble]

My point was that the concern should always be for Egyptians.

My point is that the concern should always be for the paying customer because without them there will be no jobs and no salaries for Egyptians and foreigners alike!

What I would've liked to see is a program of some sort that balances between employing foreigners and raising the skill level of Egyptians. A dive center would hire a foreign dive instructor for example and part of the agreement would be to dedicate certain hours per week to train Egyptians. ... Egyptian staff will also have to be employed on the conditions that they engage in skill development. Of course this would have to be a government initiative since most business foreign or specially Egyptian owned would not care to do that.
Something to improve the community not to merely profit and consume and be done.

Here we are in agreement. I am all for training Egyptians to a higher level as long as they also commit to self-education. I would pay for their training, materials, fees and so on, as long as they would learn a foreign langauge to a level that allows teaching. I would also pay for the costs of that.
As long as I can not find suitably skilled Egyptians on the jobmarket, I have no choice but to hire foreigners.
If this has to be a government initiative, I don´t know. Make it a prerequisite for work permits to have not only a ratio of Egyptians:foreigners but also a ratio of Egyptians in training:work permits. I don´t know - maybe for each 3 permits there must be one Egyptian in training...

One thing that I really would love to see gone is tips. The dive centers I know, rely heavily on tips paid to divemasters and center staff. The cleaner, the guy who fills the tanks and the one who washes the equipment and the rest of them, get so very little wage that they rely on tips to supplement their income. I heard them often discussing how one group left only 200LE after a week of diving and the couple who didn't leave anything and so on. I heard the same from divemasters. It looks to me like the owners of those centers shifted the burden of paying reasonable living wages to the customer who in most cases has no clue how much to leave if anything and with all honesty I don't think the customer should leave anything at all.

Tips are a sign of appreciation! They are not nor should they be part of or a substitute for salaries. Tips cans raise motivation and be a reward for a job well done in the eyes of the customer. Salaries must in themselves make it possible to support a living - tips are just the icing on the cake. Tips are not singular to Egypt, they are common all over the world and part of society and culture. You tip a waiter, a bell boy, a taxi driver and so on - why not tip a Divemaster? I see nothing wrong with tipping.

 

[Crowley]

Am in full agreement that the community as a whole should benefit, and that community includes both Egyptian nationals and Foreign staff. There's a definite mutual symbiosis between the two communities because as the dive industry stands at the moment, we can't exist without each other.

Foreign staff have their complaints about Egyptians, and for sure they have their complaints about us. If a member of staff is not doing their job properly, I'm going to have a talk with them, or speak with my manager, but in that respect all nationalities are treated equally. I expect quality instruction and supervision from my colleagues and if I witness poor instruction or supervision from my fellow foreigners, I will report it. From another angle, the guests and I expect that the required amount of tanks will be prepared, the food on the boat is of the highest quality, that other manual labour which in some cases is legally required to be undertaken solely by Egyptians, is performed to a satisfactory standard.

As for wages - I'm not going to write specific numbers but the non-diving Egyptian staff at my centre are paid a salary commensurate with the national average for the type of work involved. For sure it's more they would earn working on a farm or piloting a fishing boat somewhere out of Suez. Some, not all, Egyptian staff live in shared housing, which is often supplemented or paid for by the dive centre. Just to give a contrast - after the shark attacks and revolution I earned, between the beginning of December and the end of March, about the equivalent of two months' rent... for the whole apartment, because both of my flatmates had to leave.

So yeah, economics and expected standards of living aside, we have all been hit hard over the last few months. All of us. The entire community.

No foreign staff in the dive industry = less foreign business = less need for Egyptian labour = less money for everybody. Boat crews from some big name centres were - and still are - sitting around idle half the time because there *is* no business for that dive centre.

There has been a pickup for sure in the last few weeks, and Sharm is busy again - but not for everybody. Divers are coming en masse, a lot of the foreign staff have already left - no new staff are coming. I am waiting to see what happens, but do not get many days off at the moment!

With respect to tips.... I relied on tips during a previous job in the Caribbean to keep me supplied with beer, so I know what that feels like. Many guests here in Sharm ask about the tipping routine, and the Egyptian tour reps say "tipping is a part of Egyptian Culture". Really?! It's kind of expected, but remember if ten people on a boat pay 10LE each as a tip to the crew at the end of their holiday, 100LE for the crew is actually quite a big bonus. It's a big bonus for me as well, actually!

Had a beautiful day in Tiran today, and off to Ras Mohamed tomorrow. I love my job!

Cheers

C.

At the moment if we all work together, we'll all be fine. If we don't, we're screwed, at least in the short term.

 

[macrobubble]

I got my work permit renewed without any problems and within one day. Just wanted to let you guys know...

 

[Crowley]

Good news to hear macrobubble - mine is up for renewal soon and after all the hassle I went through getting it in the first place I am glad to hear that it will be easy. I was told this by my dive centre also, but it's good to have independent confirmation, as it were.

Cheers

C.

 

[macrobubble]

I was told, though, that all work permits will expire on Sept. 7th (as mine is now). They said than from now on, permits will always be issued from this date. I don´t know the reason behind it and can´t see any logic in that, but it´s Egypt...

Therefore everybody will have to renew around that date.
Expect renewals to take much longer, when they have thousands of passports on their desks at the same time...