Work permits for non-Egyptian diving staff required for CDWS renewals

[Red Sea Shadow]

This following quote is String's (copied from a British forum):
"Greece despite the EU you have to register which makes you eligable to ECA/tax. However nobody bothers but fines of a few thousand euros if caught. So, even though its EU doesn't mean its that clear and easy."

The following quote is for a person called James (also copied from the same British forum):
"You have no chance of working in France as a instructor."

The following quote is for a person called Julian Goffin (still the same British forum):
"Unfortunately Malta, even though being in the EU still requires a work permit, which is a bit of a pain.... Hopefully in the future this may change but for now ... WORK PERMIT..."

The whole thread is at Work Permits - YD Scuba Diving Forums

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

I am not criticizing the fact that you need a work permit.
I am only concerned that the dive operations, which are doing a lot of price competition, will push this cost on the instructors and that overall this will reduce the opportunities for foreign workers.
Not to mention free lancers who will need to set up a local company that costs a lot of money and then goes back into the 10:1 ratio
If there is no ratio and you can apply for a work permit just for yourself I do not see an issue in starting companies. But tell me why would I need to employ 10 local staff if I am a free lance instructor?

Any country should protect its own citizens. Why should a country secure easy jobs for foreigners while the locals are striving? Let's go the other way round. Could an Egyptian instructor (freelancer or other) get a work permit in Europe? Even with 10:1 rule? No way.

You're most welcome as an investor. This way you'll be working legally and will benefit the economy so let's capitalize on these points and be objective. As far as I believe, you guys should be complaining about the excessive requirements of establishing new dive centers not about the 10:1 ratio.

 

[Interceptor121]

I have worked in several countries within Europe and you don't need a work permit.
I don't know specifically about Malta but I was offered a job which I did not accept and there was no work permit requirement

Paying taxes is a different matter, wherever you go you have to pay, it is the same for the people that do seasonal work in Egypt, they should pay taxes in their country of origin

The 10:1 requirement is crap as the job should be given to the most capable provided they comply with the law

In many countries where there is a lot of diving you can set a company and you don't need to employ locals at all

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

The 10:1 requirement is crap as the job should be given to the most capable provided they comply with the law

In many countries where there is a lot of diving you can set a company and you don't need to employ locals at all

Yes the job should be given to the most capable provided they comply with the law. And the 10:1 is part of the law! Laws are tailored to serve different interests.

And in many countries you can't even establish your 100% owned company. And sometimes you can't even have a controlling share.

If I were in your shoes, I would have tried to talk about the new dive centers' requirements. At the end of the day that's easier since it's CDWS decision. The major drawback is that it collides with big operators interest.

 

[Interceptor121]

10:1 is rubbish because is based on man power numbers and there are professions who do not require manpower to start with or require qualifications that sometimes the locals don't have.
The net result is that some people that are not even doing any work are on the official papers getting paid a minimum amount while the rest of the real people working do not even have a business VISA. The police knows this and nobody does anything because in reality there is not a chance of running a company with 90% Egyptians because of lacking qualifications in most cases.

There are many other things that could be improved before talking about work permits the list for Egypt is very very long

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

What you said regarding the professions that require qualifications the locals don't have is right. However, it does not apply to diving. Anyone can become a dive professional in less than 6 months. It does not require a degree in nuclear physics. Actually you get paid by piece so it's considered blue collar not even white collar job.

Improving Egypt is the matter of Egyptians I'm afraid.

 

[Interceptor121]

At present the ratio between Egyptian instructors and foreign is far from 10:1
Which means that as String said if you get rid of all the free lance by Easter you will have problems.
Even the biggest dive center have small minority of employed staff so this will effectively just bring damage to foreign free lance and later on to the dive businesses themselves

We will see how things go later on

 

[String]

10:1 clause isnt an issue for dive centres - reading the full cdws propaganda thing centres are allowed to bypass that. Permit is "between 3000 and 4000 LE" and most centres i know of are going to make their staff buy the permit and not provide it. It will completely end freelance.

There are nowhere near enough locals able to do the job - add that to the fact a lot of the DMs etc are extremely bad even to the extent that their certifying instructor from their dive centre wont even employ them - a lot have their course "greeked" in that a lot of the DM stuff was simply signed up for them. We've struggled to find *competent* local staff to guide or teach for a while.

Its going to end the way of working. Most peoples approach now that freelances wont be available is that the current system of "you can start your course NOW" wont work any more - you cant just phone an instructor. So most places are looknig at backing up courses starting only on certain days which means (i ) people will now have to wait to start courses which on a time limited holiday isnt good and (ii) those courses will no longer be 1 or 2 pacs and will likely be 4,6 or 8 packs meaning its a lot more stressful for the instructor and the student receives a poorer quality of training.

Its going to really kill the smaller centres who cant afford many permanent staff and use freelancers a lot but wont affect the big operators who will have a bigger pool of instructors (and own them due to their permits etc) to choose from. Like anything else CDWS related its really going to punish small centres and possibly remove a lot of them. Bad for competition too.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

There are nowhere near enough locals able to do the job - add that to the fact a lot of the DMs etc are extremely bad even to the extent that their certifying instructor from their dive centre wont even employ them - a lot have their course "greeked" in that a lot of the DM stuff was simply signed up for them. We've struggled to find *competent* local staff to guide or teach for a while.

Certifying a bad DM that you won't be ready to employ is the dive center's / certifying instructor's fault. It has nothing to do with neither the DM nor his nationality.

There are extremely good Egyptian instructors and DMs. And there are some bad ones. Also there're some bad non-Egyptians and some good ones. The deteriorated quality you mentioned is mainly because the dive center / instructor isn't interested in doing a good job because of the course price. Instead they make the DM candidate carry tanks etc...

 

[String]

Certifying a DM is the centre's fault but as so much of Egypt relies on who you know and contacts especially if a local more than what you can actually do the problem is a lot more widespread than elsewhere. As for carrying tanks etc - that IS part of what a DM should be doing. Its preparation for a dive and so on.