Ummm No.
The skills are not directly interchangeable but can certainly be utilized/beneficial to either discipline's use. They are SIMILAR in the way that Deco diving (soft overhead) is in some ways similar (and dissimilar) to cave and wreck (hard overhead).
Are you aware of the syllabus on technical wreck? For example:
Proper guideline deployment
Use of arrows/cookies
Guideline following
Guideline retrieval
Air-Sharing guideline following
Light and tactile communications
Primary light failure/deployment of back-up light
Lost line drill
Lost buddy drill
Entanglement drill
Zero viz practice of the above.
Gas management for penetration
Team roles and responsibilities
Equipment configuration
Those are all technical wreck skills/drills. Quite interchangeable with full cave. None feature on a soft-overhead/deco course.
No cave diving agency of note (NSS-CDS, NACD, IANTD, or TDI) has a standard that permits wreck to cave substitution. I can't speak the other way, but imagine that it is the same.
I didn't realize IANTD or TDI were "cave agencies of note"
On one hand, we have agency standards. On the other, we have the debate of transferability. Standards might not reflect the reality.
What I mentioned, was a personal experience It was an example to show transferability, not to illustrate agency standards. I was told I could skip cavern etc and go direct to full cave. I am not claiming that's a standard. I do, however, have a special relationship with the instructor concerned; many years of diving together, mostly overhead, and high familiarity with my strengths, weaknesses and skill-set.
The one notable technical difference is that there is NO specific requirement imposed that you have to be wreck penetration certified to actually do a wreck penetration (yes some dive boats do police this but not consistently or uniformly).
Again, I think you're not understanding the nature of advanced/technical wreck training. This is entirely penetration-focused training, that qualifies for unlimited penetration; beyond the light-zone, through restrictions and with decompression.
You seem to be talking about basic/entry-level wreck, from the generic agencies (i.e. PADI). Such courses DO NOT equate to Full Cave... or even Cavern. I agree with you on that most whole-heartedly.
BUT Every cave site requires cave certification to enter and restricts diving to the level of your certification (theoretically).
You mean in the USA. It's a small oversight.
.As a Northeast diver...do complex, deco intensive wreck penetration and tie in going a hundred feet beyond the light zone and be wracked out on a great dive. Did I tie in well, use the right gauge reel, full finger gloves to protect, read plans of wreck, orient direction, set visual cues? There are cave skills are HELPFUL - good buoyancy, redundancy, strong lights, streamlining, rule of thirds, but in a wreck environment they are not all encompassing.
Firstly, I think it's important to recognize that there are different approaches or 'styles' to technical wreck diving. Some regions, or groups, have adopted an approach that inherits more from cave experience. From what I see, NE USA wreck divers seem more individualistic and resistant to adopting cave-type, more standardized protocols. (
I am not insinuating that either approach is better or worse).
For the record, I don't think "good buoyancy, redundancy, strong lights, streamlining, rule of thirds" are cave skills. They are very much generic overhead environment skills. Some might even say they are generic diving skills...open-water or overhead.
... wreck skills would help, streamlined configuration, cutting tools, reel use, but again it's not all I needed, it's not the same.
Again, I don't see how these are "wreck skills". I am sure a lot of cavers would disagree that these skill-sets/equipment factors are equally critical to cave...and equally well covered in cave diving training....
Where are the jump markers, do I understand the systems gold line, flow issues, no finger cover/gloves or you may never find that silted out line, are my cookies arrows, and reels properly set, do I know cave etiquette with other divers, environmental impacts?
I see nothing in that statement that cannot apply to wreck or cave penetration.
I would say GENERALLY the Full Cave Diver and the very EXPERIENCED Advanced Wreck diver have many of the same skill sets, conditioned responses and habits..
This is what I disagree with. I see it as cave snobbery.
Why would a freshly graduated full cave diver automatically be superior to a freshly graduated technical wreck diver? Assuming they are both properly taught, and learned the same skills, drills and protocols...
I often use a traverse of the main engine rooms of the USS New York ACR-2 as my final check-out/graduation dive on technical wreck classes. This dive is essentially one long restriction, in a very disorientating route, with a lot of silt in close proximity, there are many entanglement hazards - it's basically a maze of pipework and few solid walls...and it has killed people. It is far more claustrophobic and technically challenging that what I see many full cave students undertaking.
This is the entrance to those engine rooms..
But the ability to wield them in their differing environments is not automatic- they both need to learn the other environmental condition before being competent.
This I DO agree with. It's why I wouldn't go into a cave system without training, regardless of my existing overhead environment experience inside wrecks.
What I'm trying to indicate (and mentioned before) is that training in Full Cave and Technical Wreck may be near-identical... but it's
application appropriate to the environment (wreck/cave) is sufficiently different to merit specialist environment-specific training.
...respectfully to ANDI - neither their size nor history suggests they are or should be considered a "standards" setting cave organization. That distinction belongs to the NACD and NSS-CDS who are solely in the business of cave diving, from the inception of the discipline. In fact nearly all technical diving innovation comes out of these two diving organizations work in advancing cave diving. So I'd say they deserve a little bit of status there.
A very USA-focused opinion, but to be expected, I guess... You are aware, I hope, that cave diving existed...and still exists... outside of the USA and places where US divers frequently visit (Mexico and Caribbean).
