Discussion Thread Accidents and Incident Threads: Victim Perspective

[bowlofpetunias]

Reference thread http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...t-threads-victim-perspective.html#post7242324

Thank you to Cave Diver, Diver0001, boulderjohn, NetDoc mselaneous and the others who helped me by reading and editing the sticky. Thanks to those who helpied me maintain my sanity and get accurate information out for discussion during a very difficult time.

It is my hope that others who experience dive related tragedies will find some comfort and the support. Please contact myself or another staff member you are comfortable with if you are involved in an Accident or Incident and would like to provide information anonamously to help us understand and learn from these tragic events.

 

[Storker]

Firstly, thanks for posting the sticky!

Secondly, I'd like to comment on one of the points you make:

In many of my posts I urged people to consider the impact of what they are posting on those involved. Obviously in the case of a fatality the central victim can not be impacted as they are no longer with us, but the other victims are MASSIVELY impacted!

I, too, follow and participate in the A&I forum. I like to believe that the reason is a sincere wish to learn from incidents and fatalities to become a safer diver both for myself and my buddies.

Now, post-incident analysis is a difficult exercise. It has to be armchair quarterbacking, since most of the participants in the discussion weren't there when the accident happened. Add to that the fact that language is a difficult thing, particularly for us who don't have English as out first language, and the arena is set for opinions that may very well be taken badly or perceived as insensitive. Yes, some people are know-it-alls and do have - as so aptly said - social skills that don't surpass those of an elephant in a porcelain shop, but keep in mind that some of us may just have a clumsy grip of the English language and language conventions.

Remember Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity"
My addendum: or cluelessness...

 

[Rich Keller]

Why have an "Accident and Incident" section at all if you are just going to sugarcoat the after action review? I have seen enough of these threads to spot a pattern in most of the discussions and in my opinion they are just about useless anyway. You get an initial report with very few solid facts, then there is a lot of speculation on what might have gone wrong until someone comes on and says "I knew the diver and they had the best training & equipment so it MUST have been natural causes." Most people then agree and go away satisfied thinking that this can never happen to them. Why not change the name to "Died of Natural Causes" or get rid of this section all together?

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

get rid of this section all together?

That way we don't offend anyone - God forbid.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Firstly, thanks for posting the sticky!

Secondly, I'd like to comment on one of the points you make:

I, too, follow and participate in the A&I forum. I like to believe that the reason is a sincere wish to learn from incidents and fatalities to become a safer diver both for myself and my buddies.

Now, post-incident analysis is a difficult exercise. It has to be armchair quarterbacking, since most of the participants in the discussion weren't there when the accident happened. Add to that the fact that language is a difficult thing, particularly for us who don't have English as out first language, and the arena is set for opinions that may very well be taken badly or perceived as insensitive. Yes, some people are know-it-alls and do have - as so aptly said - social skills that don't surpass those of an elephant in a porcelain shop, but keep in mind that some of us may just have a clumsy grip of the English language and language conventions.

Remember Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity"
My addendum: or cluelessness...

Thanks for your well thought out response. My aim in the sticky is twofold.

1) Get people to think of the impact of what they post. Like NetDoc said "You can still express you opinion and be kind at the same time". If we can get people to think before they hit post there is a better chance that more information will be made available. If we can make witnesses/dive buddies will feel safer in providing the information we will be able to learn more from the incidents. One of the common laments is that we don't get information to base the discussion on.

Unfortunately often the information is there but overwhelmed by all the chest thumpers. I know that was certainly the case in our incident. People were demanding information when it was actually being provided. Non of the ones who were there felt comfortable posting directly (still don't) but we all had a trusted a confident or two we were providing information to. The reasonable questions were answered as well as we could. As in many cases all of the answers may never be known.

Remember the "surviving victims" are also going to be concerned about potential legal consequences. Too many people have been sued when they did the right thing to the best of their ability. One of the common responses in grieving is Anger and the surviving victims don't want the anger directed at them. They have enough to deal with already! It makes sense to that if you believe A & I threads have the potential to save lives (as I do) that you will not be willing to post something on the internet that could potentially be misinterpreted and become part of the "evidence" against you in a law suit!

2) Help the "Surviving victims" understand that the posters may say thing that are not meant to be hurtful but do hurt. That hurt is sometimes more a result of how overwhelmed and raw the survivor is and not the insensitivity of the poster.

Effective communication relies on The Sender making clear statements and The Receiver interpreting them correctly. The intent and emotional state of both parties impact how the process works. In the aftermath of an incident The Receiver is likely to be so raw that they need an intermediary (like we did) to help them keep things in perspective to minimise the pain.

I hope that my post helps them understand that while people may seem to be talking about their event they are not really. They are talking about their interpretation of the event, their opinion of what they think happened. Their theories/speculation are just theories and speculation. Those theories and speculations have value but still need to be done with some sensitivity.

What feels like an attack when you are in the midst of things may not be meant that way at all. I hope that through the sticky and discussion here we can in reality increase the effectiveness of A & I by helping both posters and Survivors be considerate of the impact on each other.


Offence will be taken in spite of our best efforts to avoid it. IMHO the value and effectiveness of the A & I threads will be enhanced when all involved make serious efforts to be considerate of the impacted individuals. Some already do that. Others act as if the disclaimer about not having family read the thread gives cart blange to spew vitriol and phrase things like accusations. Some people do have poor communication skills but IMHO sometimes they are just Attention Seeking Grandstanders. People with poor communication styles can be helped the others IMHO do not belong in A & I. When we have mechanisms in place to make the Surviving Victims feel safe in providing their information to A & I more will be learned from these tragedies. We as a community will be better able to help each other be safe and support our fellow members when we need each other the most.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I'm going to have to start an A/I thread just to cover the abuse being heaped upon the verb form of impact.

That aside, overt condolences don't belong here (IMO)--tacking them onto A/I posts makes them a meaningless gloss people add as window dressing to posts focused on dissecting the event in hopes of learning from it. If you actually give a care about the victim, take the 30 seconds to make a separate thread/post about it. But that's just my perception of that kind of amalgam--no more or less valid than victims' relatives' perceptions of A/I posts as hurtful.

I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone demand information from those who think they have it, but surely nobody has any obligation to provide the Internets with facts at the expense of their own wellbeing. It's definitely helping the A/I forum's purpose to keep discourse polite enough that it would help encourage those with facts to disclose them to the extent they're willing. But that politeness needs to come from phrasing and tone, not what avenues of inquiry and debate are permissible (within reason, of course). Explaining an accident by concluding the victim was a muppet isn't in any way helpful, but it's entirely possible that a helpful discussion of the accident and victim will leave those emotionally involved with the victim feeling like their loved one has been called a muppet. Unfortunate, but unavoidable in some ways.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

One last point - send family's or any one that is sensitive to the "Passings" section where only flowery things and happy thoughts are said about those no longer with us... You could setup an entire section dedicated to any diver that passed and the legacy they left behind. Seems an appropriate place - no one mentions how they died only the fact that they are no longer with us.
Just a thought.
Those that would like to speculate and try to make sense of the accident could feel free to do so - or you could even make A+I private and only those that sign up can have access... Keep the families and those that might be offended out and caution them against joining the A+I section...
If the adults on Scubaboard feel the need to speculate or follow leads - I am not sure it is up to one or two folks to feel the need to make changes but that is just me - I learn quite a bit from Near Misses and Accidents.
I am not insensitive to your concerns but I don't feel the need to be chaperoned in an Internet chat room.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I also have learned a lot from A & I. We will learn more if more accurate information is provided by those involved. Some sensitivity in our posting is a small price to pay to get that information and increase the lessons learned.

 

[gypsyjim]

I do not see what BoP has posted here as asking to sugar coat the A&I, or turn the forum into a condolences thread.

What it seems to me is being said, is that, yes this forum is dedicated to discussing an incident or accident and hopefully gaining some insight that might add to our knowledge, and help others avoid a similar event. As such a lot of speculation and projection is bound to be a part of that discussion.
BUT, despite this not being a condolences thread, the family of the victim, and others involved WILL be reading this, trying to understand themselves WHY their loved one has been injured or has died. They are searching for answers in a way very few of us on the board can begin to appreciate, and they may be hanging on every word that we post, looking for answers they may never have. They are in extreme pain after such an accident, and will turn to every possible avenue, looking for those reasons.

It seems to me, that we should never lose sight of the fact that our words here will be read by the victims, and keep our tone respectful as we search for our own answers to what may or may not have happened, and what we think we may have been done differently.

Most people can discuss an incident without attacking or belittling others, even when they do not agree. Some posters can not do that, of course. With some of us the choice of words is not going to come across quite the way they were intended. Still, I believe that we can have our rough and tumble A&I discussions, trying to reconstruct what we think may have happened from the little info we may think we have, offer our opinions on the choices we think were being made, and try to educate fellow divers on the risks, hazards and safety concerns of this sport as we see them, while keeping it in the back of our minds that our words may have an impact on others that we are not speaking to directly.

BoP is speaking from a perspective that hopefully very few of us will ever have, when viewing such an A&I thread. Her perspective can add value to the A&I discussions, if we are able to listen, and take a few seconds to try to see our words through the eyes of someone who has experience on both ends of this type of discussion.

---------- Post added October 13th, 2014 at 08:32 AM ----------

BoP, correct me if I am putting words in your mouth.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I do not see what BoP has posted here as asking to sugar coat the A&I, or turn the forum into a condolences thread.

What it seems to me is being said, is that, yes this forum is dedicated to discussing an incident or accident and hopefully gaining some insight that might add to our knowledge, and help others avoid a similar event. As such a lot of speculation and projection is bound to be a part of that discussion.
BUT, despite this not being a condolences thread, the family of the victim, and others involved WILL be reading this, trying to understand themselves WHY their loved one has been injured or has died. They are searching for answers in a way very few of us on the board can begin to appreciate, and they may be hanging on every word that we post, looking for answers they may never have. They are in extreme pain after such an accident, and will turn to every possible avenue, looking for those reasons.

It seems to me, that we should never lose sight of the fact that our words here will be read by the victims, and keep our tone respectful as we search for our own answers to what may or may not have happened, and what we think we may have been done differently.

Most people can discuss an incident without attacking or belittling others, even when they do not agree. Some posters can not do that, of course. With some of us the choice of words is not going to come across quite the way they were intended. Still, I believe that we can have our rough and tumble A&I discussions, trying to reconstruct what we think may have happened from the little info we may think we have, offer our opinions on the choices we think were being made, and try to educate fellow divers on the risks, hazards and safety concerns of this sport as we see them, while keeping it in the back of our minds that our words may have an impact on others that we are not speaking to directly.

BoP is speaking from a perspective that hopefully very few of us will ever have, when viewing such an A&I thread. Her perspective can add value to the A&I discussions, if we are able to listen, and take a few seconds to try to see our words through the eyes of someone who has experience on both ends of this type of discussion.

---------- Post added October 13th, 2014 at 08:32 AM ----------

BoP, correct me if I am putting words in your mouth.

You are absolutely correct gypsyjim.

I would like to add something else tho. I have a background in Emergency Services, Post Traumatic Stress Defusing/Debriefing and Grief Counselling which helped me understand that my reaction to some of the posts was because of my emotional state. I knew some of the hurtful posts were because the person was posting from a position of pain themselves and perhaps lashing out. I knew to look for people I could trust to help me put things in perspective and become my filters.

My efforts here are not just in hope that posters will be respectful but just as importantly trying to reach the "surviving victims" to perhaps help "tone down" their reaction as well. I would like to help them find their own way of putting things in perspective... finding their own filters to help them cope.

Someone said they didn't see anywhere where people "Demanded information". I can tell you it sure feels like people are demanding information.:doh: When you post.. "we need more information" (which is a reasonable request) multiple times it feels like demanding. I can and do see the need for information. Often the ones that hold most of the information are witnesses and dive buddies. If we don't provide a way that they feel safe in providing the info they will only read and cry and hurt!

If we are respectful AND help them understand that their reaction may be over the top by giving them support they can provide information while feeling safe. There are lessons to be learn. They are paid for in loss, pain and grief. I remember reading through my tears and crying "They understand the family is in pain and say they shouldn't come here. Why can't they understand the rest of us are in pain too? They want us to come here to spill our guts... give all the details so they can rip us a new A hole!" I know and even then I knew that reaction was from my own position of pain so I went to my support system to help me get it in perspective so I could persevere in reading and providing details to help the discussion.

Not everyone has the pre-existing support system I had. I would like to urge them to find their support system and if possible offer them the support so they can provide the information only they have to use these tragedies to keep others safe. It is likely that the best choice will be to supply that information through a third party such as myself, another Mod or someone else they trust.

Finally I want to point out that appropriate Professional advice CAN not be given on the internet. We also need to remember there is a line between offering support and creating dependencies when we should be encouraging them to get professional help. Scubaboard like any other community is made up of people from a broad range of professions and skills. All of these Professionals will tell you it is inappropriate to consider suggestions offered online as sufficient to replace the intervention of Personalised care of a Qualified Professional in the "Real world".