What makes someone an "Advanced Scuba Diver"?

[NWGratefulDiver]

This is a bit more freeform than some other threads ... I'd like to key off of something Thalassamania posted recently, and invite thoughts from divers at all levels.

An insight on the question from Glen Egstrom in 1996:

Basic diver training courses have been redefined according to the specific training organizations' philosophies. They are generally in agreement with the Recreational Scuba Training Council (RSTC) guidelines but are not focused upon the complexities of the various skills. Modular approaches are beginning to have an impact on instruction but the emphasis on problem solving found in many earlier courses has been relegated to advanced experiences.

I think Mr. Egstrom makes an interesting point here ... in typical recreational classes we learn skills. In real-world diving, we learn how to apply those skills in a rather wide range of situations, environments and circumstances. Mr. Egstrom refers to "problem solving" ... and I think that's a great way to look at what constitutes advanced diving ... being able to apply skills outside of the context in which you learned them, for the purpose of solving a problem.

An example ... you are diving a wall and encounter an unexpected current that starts sweeping you down and away from the wall. As you kick harder to get back to the wall, CO2 begins building up in your body ... creating an "I can't get enough air" sensation. Meanwhile, your buddy ... who is working as hard as you are ... is slowly being forced farther and farther away by the current.

This is a reasonable ... although difficult ... type of problem that a diver may have to face at some advanced dive sites. Your training gave you all the tools you need to resolve it. There are several possible courses of action ... the advanced diver would be able to consider the options, and settle on one that would have the best potential for a positive outcome.

What would you do? How prepared do you feel you are to utilize the tools of your training to solve a problem underwater?

Do you feel that this is a reasonable criteria by which to consider yourself an "advanced scuba diver"?

If not ... how would you define it?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Thalassamania]

I think Glen was foreshadowing what I tried to delineate in my definitions:

Novice: Diving knowledge is minimal and solely 'textbook.' It does not connect decisions with actions and ignores the context in which the action will be taken. The available suite of skills rigidly adhere to learned rules, other responses are not readily available. The possible use of knowledge for planning is without situational awareness and lacks discretionary judgment. The diver has available only rational decision making tools, nothing is intuitive or holistic. Individual actions are seen (and taken) in isolation with no conception of, or capability to deal with, complexity. Performance is unlikely to be satisfactory unless closely supervised.

Beginner: The diver has developed a working knowledge of key aspects of tasks and appreciates that complex diving situations exist. Since situational awareness is limited, all attributes and aspects tend to be treated separately and given equal importance. Though the diver begins to use global characteristics of situations that are recognized from limited prior experience, problems are primarily solved by using rote guidelines for action that are based on situational attributes. The diver is starting to make rudimentary attempts to decide on appropriate actions in context, but is limited to applying actions as a series of steps, and thus can not be expected to successfully resolve complex situations. Though supervision is needed for the accomplishment of the overall task, straightforward tasks likely to be completed to an acceptable standard and the beginner is able to achieve some steps using his or her own judgment.

Competent: The diver now has a good working knowledge of diving, as well as some background knowledge of diving, and as a result can deal with knowledge in context. Recognition of relevance is now present. Actions are seen, at least partly, in terms of longer-term goals. The diver is able to cope with simple multiple, simultaneous, and competing inputs. The diver sees actions (at least partially) in terms of longer-term goals. The diver performs best with standardized and routine procedures, but is able to achieve most tasks using his or her own judgment and can alos engage in conscious and deliberate planning. Skills are fit for the purpose intended, though they may lack refinement.

Proficient: The diver posses a depth of understanding of the disciplines that make up diving, as well as those specific to diving, so that the diver can make a holistic assessment in context, rather than just an analytic one. The diver can deal with complex situations holistically, and decision-making is more confident. Performing to a fully acceptable standard is routine, as is seeing what is most important in a situation. Deviations from the normal pattern are quickly perceived. Decision-making is less labored. Maxims are used for guidance, but there is understanding that conclusions will (and should) vary according to the situation. The diver sees the overall 'picture' and how individual actions fit within it. The diver is able to take full responsibility for his or her own work (and that of others where and when applicable).

Expert: The diver is capable of making correct decisions on an intuitive basis. He or she no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims and posses an authoritative knowledge of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations. In complex circumstances, the diver moves easily between intuitive and analytical approaches, using analytic approaches solely in completely novel situations or when problems occur. The diver sees the overall 'picture' and simultaneously grasps alternative approaches. The diver is comfortable taking responsibility for going beyond existing standards and creating original interpretations using a vision of what is possible. Excellence is achieved with relative ease.

There was a time when most certified divers were competent, now they are almost always novice, rarely a beginner. There was a time when becoming an instructor started with being an expert diver, today one is lucky to find an instructor who is even a proficient diver. What is usually lacking is not the ability to do one of the twenty skills, or even trim and buoyancy, what is missing are critical components of two items:

1. The diver can make a holistic assessment in context, rather than just an analytic one.
2. Maxims are used for guidance, but there is understanding that conclusions will (and should) vary according to the situation.

In my gut the critical phrase to truly define a Master Diver is: "He or she no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims and posses an authoritative knowledge of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations."

The thing that disturbs me is the rather clear equivalency between advanced and competent. Depauperism strikes once again.

[gsk3]

The thing that disturbs me is the rather clear equivalency between advanced and competent. Depauperism strikes once again.

I agree that the standard offered as "Advanced" in the "What to experienced divers think" thread was way too low. But try discussing it there without getting snapped at!

One issue I see with your Expert definition is that it's unclear whether going beyond the standards is always moving in a direction that is good. If you mean in a particular dive, then sure. But an expert is generally sought out for their opinion, and only the test of time (and perhaps not even that) can filter out the experts whose innovations are good from those whose innovations seemed like a good idea but resulted in a net detriment to diver safety and ability to accomplish tasks.

[DaleC]

I have to go somewhere right now but to answer your question specifically.
I'd flip my buddy the "I'm ascending" hand signal and resign myself to a mid water ascent, cursing all the way. I would also resign myself to floating around for a while but would try to swim obliquely to the current with hopes of snagging the shore. Sucks to be me.
As Kenny Rogers once said: You gotta know when to hold em; know when to fold em...

[Thalassamania]

I agree that the st6andard offered as "Advanced" in the "What to experienced divers think" thread was way too low. But try discussing it there without getting snapped at!

One issue I see with your Expert definition is that it's unclear whether going beyond the standards is always moving in a direction that is good. If you mean in a particular dive, then sure. But an expert is generally sought out for their opinion, and only the test of time (and perhaps not even that) can filter out the experts whose innovations are good from those whose innovations seemed like a good idea but resulted in a net detriment to diver safety and ability to accomplish tasks.

I understand what you are saying, I fear that a large part of the answer it tautological in that it is definitional:
.
Expert: The diver is capable of making correct¹ decisions on an intuitive basis. He or she no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims² and posses an authoritative knowledge³ of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of⁴, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations⁵. In complex circumstances, the diver moves easily between intuitive and analytical approaches⁶, using analytic approaches solely in completely novel situations^7a or when problems occur^7b. The diver sees the overall 'picture' and simultaneously grasps alternative approaches⁸. The diver is comfortable taking responsibility for going beyond existing standards⁹ and creating original interpretations using a vision of what is possible¹⁰. Excellence is achieved with relative ease.

1. Correct is correct, by definition. If you make "correct" decisions on an "intuitive" basis, then when you go beyond "existing standards" to create "original interpretations using a vision of what is possible," you are always moving in "correct" direction.

2. For example, the "rule, guideline or maxim" is "never hold your breath." The expert knows that divers need to hold their breath all the time, for any number of reasons. You just don't hold your breath when ascending with a full lung.

3. Understanding 2 (above) come as a result of the possession of "authoritative knowledge,"

4. a deep tacit understanding,

5. and a holistic and intuitive grasp of situation. That's why the Expert can hold his or her breath and not suffer an AGE.

6. Problem can be solved by instinctively performing properly, and this comes from overtraining or from figuring out what the problem is and solving it logically. These two approaches can be at loggerheads so

7a. the expert knows when it is a new problem,

7b. or when the problem stems from the failure of the classic solution (which by definition makes it a new problem).

8. there we are dealing with triaging of the problem and unclouding the vision of the loggerhead.

9. Existing standards are often incomplete and/or often designed to provide a non-optimum generalized solution, the Expert is able to see beyond this,

10. based on the entire realm of possibilities.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I don't believe one needs to be an expert to consider oneself an advanced diver ... but I do believe that one needs to have the ability to think outside the box a bit, and to handle a reasonable amount of task-loading.

In effect, the Basic Diver uses his training to perform skills ... the Advanced Diver uses his training to solve problems. The latter may require you to use your skills in ways your instructor never talked about ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Thalassamania]

My point was that what is being called an "advanced" diver here fit's into my taxonomy as merely competent, and thus I have trouble using the word advanced.

[NWGratefulDiver]

My point was that what is being called an "advanced" diver here fit's into my taxonomy as merely competent, and thus I have trouble using the word advanced.

Nowadays, I'd settle for that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Thalassamania]

Nowadays, I'd settle for that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I understand what you are saying, but that's where we part company.

[Bob DBF]

Unfortunatly it only takes 5 dives and $30 to have a card proving you are an advanced diver, with the 4 dives to be certified, it is 9 dives total.

An example ... you are diving a wall and encounter an unexpected current that starts sweeping you down and away from the wall. As you kick harder to get back to the wall, CO2 begins building up in your body ... creating an "I can't get enough air" sensation. Meanwhile, your buddy ... who is working as hard as you are ... is slowly being forced farther and farther away by the current.

This is a reasonable ... although difficult ... type of problem that a diver may have to face at some advanced dive sites. Your training gave you all the tools you need to resolve it. There are several possible courses of action ... the advanced diver would be able to consider the options, and settle on one that would have the best potential for a positive outcome.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The certified advanced diver from the RSTC guidelines would be in some serious kimchee from my point of view. The poor sod probably has never heard of CO2 buildup yet, is now below the 85' of his deep dive in advanced class, is the first dive without an instructor and now his buddy is gone. Without good luck, Devine intervention, or a DM who is sharp I would not expect an optimum outcome.

When everyone gets a first place trophy, the herd is not improved.


Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.