Appropriate No of Logged dives to become a DM/instructor

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Diving Dubai

Contributor
Scuba Instructor
Divemaster
Messages
3,912
Reaction score
4,339
Location
UK, for foreseeable - UGH!
# of dives
1000 - 2499
Before I start this thread is in now way meant to be disrespectful to Candidate DM’s, Qualified DM’s and Instructors.


My question is this. Is 60 logged dives prior to qualification of a DM and or 100 logged dives for an Instructor – an appropriate experience level? (PADI)

My perspective. I’m at 100 dives, I dive warm waters but in challenging conditions. However I don’t feel that I have enough experience to be either a DM or an Instructor at 100 dives I’m still learning….

When I was getting certified I thought DM’s and Instructors were gods and while I’m happy with my diving I’m not confidant that I’d be a good peer or would I?

On the flip side I appreciate that for most people getting to 60/100 dives takes a few years and if you raised the logged dive requirement to say 200/250 then there would be a shortage of candidates – or at least a smaller pool of them…

It would be good to hear opinions from those who aren’t qualified (as DM’s Instructors) as well as those who are with the benefit of hindsight

Please lets not let this thread drift off into Agency bashing – although different perspective is welcome and lets attempt to keep this thread on topic (for a change :wink: )
 
I think it should be double the current minimum.

That said, I think it goes beyond how many dives someone has in their log book. Just having 400 dives doesn't make you a good diver, and more importantly it doesn't mean you will be a good divemaster or instructor. Anyone with the money can become a DM, and many of them shouldn't be. Instructor level takes a bit more work, but my feeling about some DMs stands true here too.
 
It depends on how those 60 / 100 dives are.

If you spent them smacking in to the bottom, yo-yo'ing a sawtooth profile, constantly in the same environment (quarry diving over and over again), and constantly running low on gas, then I would say yes, you are inexperienced.
 
I have ~125 dives over the last 2 years. Most in the dark, cold waters of the PNW. I have done some nice vacation dives. I am in doubles, I use a dry suit, have nice things like can lights and a big camera. I feel I am a decent diver and have no problems offering my experience/understanding of things to help other newer divers or divers with different experiences.

With that said, I am still learning, and have a lot to learn. How exactly is it when I am still learning that I should start teaching? Sure I can follow cards and cues to teach but how is that being a good instructor with little experience to back that up?

Of course it seems very few people know this when they take their first OW course. You assume that going through a large org like PADI that they have "highly qualified" people teaching. I know better now and with my advanced classes I look for "highly qualified" and highly recommended instructors for my advanced training.

This is coming from someone is in a training role. I teach EMT classes, I am a preceptor for Paramedic's, I am a field training officer for our new hire Paramedics. None of this happened in my first year (or 60/100 calls) of being a medic. It has taken years of experience to get here.
 
PADI pushes Zero to Hero. The DM and Instructor classes are more about being able to perform and teach the skills required, dealing with flow and safety of the class than good diving skills. You don't have to be great diver to be a DM as, in my case, most of the class is in a pool practicing and learning the 24 skills.

It is really more about the individual diver, some may be ready at 50 and 100 dives to be good DM's and Instructors, others may not ever really be ready because they do not have the temperament and or the physical skills to be a good DM or Instructor.

You can be a great diver and not be a good DM/Instructor or you can be an average diver and be a great DM/Instructor because you have the skills needed to be a good teacher.
 
Ive never really understood what a dive master is supposed to do, nor what exactly the requirements are to be one. As far as i can tell however, ive met a few of them that i would not consider good divers. I simply think its a matter of bumping standards up a bit and keeping to them, if people cant meet the standard dont pass em.

Isnt a dive master supposed to simply show they are proficient in doing all the basic skills without issue, as well as some leadership stuff. Doesnt really seem that hard.
 
In any field, being proficient and being able to teach others are completely different skill sets.

You obviously can't be a good instructor or DM until you are totally comfortable in the water, to the point that your own diving procedures are on autopilot enough that you can start worrying about someone else. On the other hand, I have known divers with thousands of dives in incredibly challenging overhead environments who don't know the first thing about teaching, and are not good at it at all.

Teaching is a much harder skill to learn, IMHO, than diving. And just like diving, there are some people who will never get it.

But to answer the OP's question, I think that there is enough disincentive for someone with marginal diving skills and a thin logbook to become an instructor that it's probably not a huge issue. It's not like you can make a fortune going pro, right? So hopefully most people who make it through a zero-to-hero instructor program will be OK on the diving side of things...

:)
 
Before I start this thread is in now way meant to be disrespectful to Candidate DM’s, Qualified DM’s and Instructors.

My question is this. Is 60 logged dives prior to qualification of a DM and or 100 logged dives for an Instructor – an appropriate experience level? (PADI)

My perspective. I’m at 100 dives, I dive warm waters but in challenging conditions. However I don’t feel that I have enough experience to be either a DM or an Instructor at 100 dives I’m still learning….

When I was getting certified I thought DM’s and Instructors were gods and while I’m happy with my diving I’m not confidant that I’d be a good peer or would I?

On the flip side I appreciate that for most people getting to 60/100 dives takes a few years and if you raised the logged dive requirement to say 200/250 then there would be a shortage of candidates – or at least a smaller pool of them…

It would be good to hear opinions from those who aren’t qualified (as DM’s Instructors) as well as those who are with the benefit of hindsight

Please lets not let this thread drift off into Agency bashing – although different perspective is welcome and lets attempt to keep this thread on topic (for a change :wink: )

It's difficult to say how many dives a person should have prior to beginning training as a dive professional ... because there are a lot of variables, including the types of dives, the environmental conditions, equipment requirements, whether they're guided dives or dives you've planned and executed independently, and not least of all your background and aptitude for learning.

It's much easier to state that for most of us, 60 or even 100 dives isn't nearly enough ... especially if those dives are spread out over a few years. I'd prefer it if entry into the professional ranks were less numerical and more contextual ... a series of prerequisite exams that tested knowledge, skill level, and attitude ... recognizing that the last would be very difficult to quantify, but it would have to include some scenarios that would test your ability to make good decisions with respect to basic emergency management and dive safety.

To put this in a different context, who would you rather be taking piano lessons with ... someone who could play scales and progressions very well, or someone who also knew something about music composition? Who would you rather be learning football from ... someone who knew the rules of the game inside and out, or someone who could also explain strategy, schemes, and the mechanics of playing a particular position?

What we have right now in the scuba industry is a bar that's intentionally set very low ... and it's like that not because the industry needs more instructors (Lord knows we have way more than we need), but because it's financially advantageous to both the agencies and the dive operations to push people into pro-level classes as quickly as possible. There's historically a very high drop-out rate in scuba diving ... something like 75% of everyone who takes an OW class will be out of diving within a couple of years. So there's an urgency to capture this market as quickly as possible, to exploit an enthusiasm for the activity and sell an image of a life that doesn't really exist, except perhaps for a tiny percentage of dive instructors, in order to get these new divers to spend more money on classes that they'll never really need or use.

The reality is that the majority of people who take Divemaster training will never work in the diving industry. A significant percentage of those who go on to take instructor training will never teach a class ... or they'll do it for a few months and realize it's not what they thought it would be. And the ones that do will, for the most part, fail miserably at being anything remotely like quality instructors. The successful ones will almost always be either people who exceeded the minimum standards by a wide margin prior to entering the professional ranks ... or they will be people who survived the initial couple of years and learned through a sequence of bad experiences what they needed to know in order to be successful.

What I would like to see is for the bar to be raised ... significantly. In addition to the higher entry standards I mentioned previously it should include a mandatory apprenticeship period at each level prior to being granted a license to teach at that level.

As long as there's financial incentive for dive shops to crank out "dive pros" like so many sausages ... creating a glut of divemasters and instructors who are willing to work for practically nothing ... you can expect the output of their classes to be less than satisfactory. Sure it gets people into diving quickly and easily ... but I question whether this is a good thing. More people coming into the sport can be ... but not if three quarters of them end up dropping out.

As one dive shop owner I know put it a few years back when we had this discussion ... all too often people learn just enough in class to scare themselves out of the sport. That doesn't do much for the health of the industry, unless your business strategy revolves around the notion that there's plenty more where they came from ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I think the numbers are way too low. I actually started my own DM program when I only had about 27 dives. My instructor saw something in me and said I was what he wanted in a candidate. But, we took it slowly and I didn't officially finish until I had about 150 dives. That was fine with me, because I didn't want zero to hero, and he doesn't teach that way, either. I'm about to start the Instructor program now, and I have 200+ dives. Again, we'll take it slowly and let me continue to gain experience.
 
I think the numbers are way too low. I actually started my own DM program when I only had about 27 dives. My instructor saw something in me and said I was what he wanted in a candidate. But, we took it slowly and I didn't officially finish until I had about 150 dives. That was fine with me, because I didn't want zero to hero, and he doesn't teach that way, either. I'm about to start the Instructor program now, and I have 200+ dives. Again, we'll take it slowly and let me continue to gain experience.

The consensus of the thread so far is that the number of dives you have is not as important as the skills you acquired during those dives.

OK, what people are forgetting is that there are classes involved in addition to the dives. You should not become a DM or an instructor until you display the skills required for those certifications, and the number of dives is merely a technicality. When I started my DM training, i was not good enough to be a DM. When I started my instructor training, I was not good enough to be an instructor. But each course included a heck of a lot of training that took me from where I was to where I needed to be.

As long as you get the proper training and are certified when you have demonstrated the appropriate skills, I don't think the number of dives matters. Just make sure you have the right people in charge of your training.
 
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