Sport diver dies doing commercial work NFLND

Mr Adams · Aug 21, 2004

ST. JOHN'S ** There are questions about whether a diver who died in Bay Bulls harbour Tuesday should have been there in the first place.
Adrian Fleming, 45, was fixing some moorings for Mullowney's, a boat tour company, when he died. But Fleming isn't registered with the Diver Certification Board of Canada as a commercial diver, the body that recognizes certified commercial divers. On Wednesday, a medical examiner confirmed his death was the result of a diving accident, and not a pre-existing medical condition. Mary Earles, Fleming's sister-in-law, says he trained as a diver in St. John's and had been diving for eight years. However, there isn't a commercial diving program in this province only sport scuba training. It's all too common for people without proper certification to take commercial work, says Dean Bailey, owner of a commercial diving company. He says many people call for a quote on underwater work, but they usually don't go with his company"We find out a month or two down the road that they hired a local scuba diver who went out and did it for them on the cheap," he says. "So in some cases, it's the case of the client cheapening out, in other cases, they probably just don't know any better. "Bailey says if people aren't aware of the rules, there will be more tragedies.The provincial government hasn't done a good job of advertising new, stricter regulations for commercial divers and companies that require commercial level work, he says. Occupational Health and Safety is still investigating. If your not a registerd commercial diver, please don't try taking on underwater jobs that may kill you, there's allot more to it than just sport diving skills.

Happy sport diving

Richard

Kevin R · Aug 21, 2004

This reminds me of the time I found a car in a 10' deep quarry we were diving. I reported the licence plate # to the OPP and a few months later recieved a call from an insurance company asking me if I'd do a dive to help hook up the tow truck so they could pull it out. I referred them to my employer, Kanata Diving Supply's commercial diving division. In Ontario, even recovering golf balls from water hazards requires commercial divers. Any time you jump in and perform a task in-water for money, regardless of depth, you are working illegally as a commercial diver.

There are many misconceptions about working underwater. Thanks to Richard for opening this thread, hopefully it will prevent a future accident.

Another avoidable, senseless death. My heartfelt condolences to the family of this diver.

FreeFloat · Aug 21, 2004

What exactly happened? Yhe news article doesn't say anything at all. Any word on what specific illegal activities he was engaged in?

Mr Adams · Aug 22, 2004

FreeFloat

There is an on going investigation over this death, I will post any updates if there are any released to the public.

Richard

pipedope · Aug 22, 2004

Depending on the jurisdiction, just diving commercially without commercial certification and equipment is against the law.

Everywhere, doing commercial work without commercial training, equipment and proper team is dangerous at best.

medic_diver45 · Aug 22, 2004

How I see it is, the Canadians seem to be a little bit overzealous on what is commercial diving. I mean if you're recovering balls from a water trap 20 ft down, that's not the same as welding pipes on an oil rig tower 200 ft down. Yes there are risks in water traps, but they are not anything that a trained open water diver is not trained for and aware of. I think this is one more case of bureaucrats writing laws governing practices and procedures of which they have no knowledge; it's nice (but sad at the same time) to see this kind of ignorant BS is not limited to the US.

We take our chances in the water everytime we put on the gear and dive in and no one is to blame if we overstep our bounds and get hurt or killed. They didn't put a gun to this man's head and make him jump in. He, and he alone, is responsible for what happened to him. The risks were there, he was (at least somewhat) aware of the potential consequences of his actions but he decided to proceed otherwise. Is it unfortunate that this man had to die? Yes. Is it likely that if he were a commercially trained diver that he would be alive today? Maybe. Credentials and professional recognition are fine and dandy, but I know some incredibly stupid professionals and even the brightest ones still make mistakes that sometimes have disasterous and tragic consequences.

In all actuality the regulations on commercial diving have less to do with safety issues (when applied to diving that is within the training of a recreational diver (who has Search and Recovery training) (i.e. recovering golf balls, recovering a boat anchor, etc) ) and far more to do with protecting the financial interests of the commercial dive industry. The ones with the most money to lose if the regs were loosened a little are usually the first ones to come out and park their happy little butts in front of TV cameras when something like this happens and proceed to proclaim, "If he had been an union diver (just using this as an argument)this wouldn't have happened." Bullsh-t, there is no way to know that a "professional" would not have made the same mistake, or suffered the same fate. We do not (at least to my knowledge) know what factor(s) or event(s) led to the demise of the diver in question. Just my humble opinion.....

My heart goes out to the family of the diver, and I pray that his soul finds peaceful rest whereever it may be.

rmediver2002 · Aug 22, 2004

medic_diver45:
How I see it is, the Canadians seem to be a little bit overzealous on what is commercial diving. I mean if you're recovering balls from a water trap 20 ft down, that's not the same as welding pipes on an oil rig tower 200 ft down. Yes there are risks in water traps, but they are not anything that a trained open water diver is not trained for and aware of. I think this is one more case of bureaucrats writing laws governing practices and procedures of which they have no knowledge; it's nice (but sad at the same time) to see this kind of ignorant BS is not limited to the US.

We take our chances in the water everytime we put on the gear and dive in and no one is to blame if we overstep our bounds and get hurt or killed. They didn't put a gun to this man's head and make him jump in. He, and he alone, is responsible for what happened to him. The risks were there, he was (at least somewhat) aware of the potential consequences of his actions but he decided to proceed otherwise. Is it unfortunate that this man had to die? Yes. Is it likely that if he were a commercially trained diver that he would be alive today? Maybe. Credentials and professional recognition are fine and dandy, but I know some incredibly stupid professionals and even the brightest ones still make mistakes that sometimes have disasterous and tragic consequences.

In all actuality the regulations on commercial diving have less to do with safety issues (when applied to diving that is within the training of a recreational diver (who has Search and Recovery training) (i.e. recovering golf balls, recovering a boat anchor, etc) ) and far more to do with protecting the financial interests of the commercial dive industry. The ones with the most money to lose if the regs were loosened a little are usually the first ones to come out and park their happy little butts in front of TV cameras when something like this happens and proceed to proclaim, "If he had been an union diver (just using this as an argument)this wouldn't have happened." Bullsh-t, there is no way to know that a "professional" would not have made the same mistake, or suffered the same fate. We do not (at least to my knowledge) know what factor(s) or event(s) led to the demise of the diver in question. Just my humble opinion.....

My heart goes out to the family of the diver, and I pray that his soul finds peaceful rest whereever it may be.

Actually the new regulations in Canada seperate the two as well, there is seperate commercial classifications for SCUBA (less equipment intensive work) and surface supplied (cutting and welding - heavy work)

The regulations are not put in place to protect the commercial diving companies, in fact the regulations force a commercial contractor to spend a heck of a lot more on diver safety, testing, maintenance, training... The regulations are there to protect the workers.

While you may feel you have enough training or knowledge to complete a particular task, what if it was an employer directing you to perform that task. What if the employer did not provide the equipment you felt was needed to perform the task safely, what if (as in the example you provide for golf courses) the employer provided no exposure protection for the chemicals in the water hazards...

Your statement about a recreational diver being trained enough to recover golf balls oversimplifies the task, I realize this is most likely not your intent you just have not performed the work before and it appears to be a simple thing. I have written in the past about the hazards of diving for golf balls but in summary. Most courses have ponds with no outlet, in large art this is due to the restrictions on water quality in place. Many times the water has to many chemicals built up from course run off and it is much easier to retain the pond. Another hazard to consider is differential pressure differences between connected water hazards, there is also a signifigant threat of entanglement in some holes.

I am not saying you or any other diver could not complete the task but you have to consider all the hazards to the diver in the water and be prepared to respond to them...

Mr Adams · Aug 22, 2004

You Medic types didn't mention that there's a set of US based commercial diving regulations, than there's the rest of the world that follows international standards and yes! I've worked in both. This was simply an accident were a diver wanted to make a few extra dollars on the side for his family in an area with a weak economy and no work, these industrial diving accidents happen all over the world.

A DIVER IS ONLY AS GOOD AS HIS PAY CHECK.

Mr A

pipedope · Aug 22, 2004

medic_diver45:
How I see it is, the Canadians seem to be a little bit overzealous on what is commercial diving. I mean if you're recovering balls from a water trap 20 ft down, that's not the same as welding pipes on an oil rig tower 200 ft down. Yes there are risks in water traps, but they are not anything that a trained open water diver is not trained for and aware of. I think this is one more case of bureaucrats writing laws governing practices and procedures of which they have no knowledge; it's nice (but sad at the same time) to see this kind of ignorant BS is not limited to the US.

First off, please quote from the standards of any dive agency showing how OW (open water) divers are trained for the risks involved in working in water traps, including working IN the bottom. It is called Open Water for a reason, OW divers are not trained to deal with anything beyond staying alive underwater on scuba.

Second, the article does say he was working on moorings. Have you ever worked on a mooring?
Even moorings for small boats are very large and heavy and there are lots of opportunities for problems. Heck, most people won't even work on these things topside, all of the parts are large and heavy, rusty and the visability is generally poor to start and nonexistent as soon as you start to work.

A commercial diver needs to be completely comfortable in his (her) gear and diving, handling problems needs to be automatic because you can't be thinking about your diving. You have to be thinking about the job and getting it done. You have to be alert to the dangers and that means you need to know what the dangers are. That means additional training and on the job experience.

The commercial diving regulations came about because divers were dieing on the job. Not to protect some fat cat job.

seavonj · Aug 22, 2004

Mr Adams:
A DIVER IS ONLY AS GOOD AS HIS PAY CHECK.

A diver is only as good as his last dive

There are always hazards when entering the water to dive whether it be commercial work or recreational scuba. The difference in recreational is that the areas where one chooses to dive are usually safer aside from the obvious dangers assocaiated with a wreck dive, cave dive current etc. When commercial diving the hazards take on a greater role, many such hazards are hidden from the obvious such as was mentioned on a previous post about the chemicals and differential pressure. By simple getting commercial training does not necessarily qualify a person to encounter these problems, a commercial diver goes through a break out period where he/she is a tender before entering the water, learning all the basics of the work, my point is that it takes time and dedication to become a commercial diver(AT LEAST A GOOD ONE), good scuba skills means that you have the ability to arrive at the job in scuba gear(not recommended for Commercial diving). Diving is such a small part in commercial diving, it is only your transportation to your worksite.

Sport diver dies doing commercial work NFLND

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