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Thread: How serious a screw-up was this?

 


  1. #81
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    Have you ever heard of the term ad hominem?


    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    Are you implying that a DM has no professional obligation to the divers on his boat? If so, why is he required to carry insurance?
    To protect himself from people who think they're not responsible for their own actions
    "You may not agree with everything I say but at the very least you'll come to understand that your differing opinion is wrong"

    Best SB post ever: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3443054-post47.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    I am positive that you are suggesting that all waivers are "TYPICAL" and the same verbage is used in all of them......I'm glad that the two examples that ypou have are very specific as to the EXACT responsibilitys of the diver, however not all are like that......Get a few more dive boats under your belt and you will understand what i mean.
    I have quite a few dive boats and dives under my belt, I have in the past and do currently work on several dive boats here in south florida. I am also a instructor I teach of off several different dives boats and have used many different boats and companies over the years. The quote from the "typical waiver" I have seen more times then not. Maybe not in the exact words but close enough, same point made. I think maybe you should pay more attention to what you are signing and try not to back up your statement with a BS response like "Get a few more dive boats under your belt and you will understand what i mean." That proves nothing other then you think you have a better answer, which you have not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tortuga68 View Post
    Have you ever heard of the term ad hominem?
    Why yes i have. And i am not personally attacking you, i am merely stating that you dont know what you are talking about. Do yourself a favor, go pro, and actually work as a DM. Not for one boat, but for a variety of boats in a variety of locations, and you will understand my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tortuga68 View Post
    To protect himself from people who think they're not responsible for their own actions
    To an extent you are right, but you are forgetting about the fact that when you accept certain obligations, you are legally bound to that obligation.
    Your argument could be equated to saying that a firefighter isnt responsible for putting out a fire to the best of his abilitys, because he didnt start the fire.
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~Louis A. Berman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendon View Post
    I have quite a few dive boats and dives under my belt, I have in the past and do currently work on several dive boats here in south florida. I am also a instructor I teach of off several different dives boats and have used many different boats and companies over the years. The quote from the "typical waiver" I have seen more times then not. Maybe not in the exact words but close enough, same point made. I think maybe you should pay more attention to what you are signing and try not to back up your statement with a BS response like "Get a few more dive boats under your belt and you will understand what i mean." That proves nothing other then you think you have a better answer, which you have not.
    Well Brendon, as an instructor you should know darn well that DUTY is a strong word. Are you implying that a DM has no DUTY to the divers on his boat, especially when he set up their gear for them? Do you not realize that as an Instructor, having a casual conversation with a non student of yours and giving advise on diving could lead to a legal liability for you, regardless of the waivers that the divers signed?
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~Louis A. Berman

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    Why yes i have. And i am not personally attacking you, i am merely stating that you dont know what you are talking about. Do yourself a favor, go pro, and actually work as a DM. Not for one boat, but for a variety of boats in a variety of locations, and you will understand my point
    lol you're doing it again...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    "An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise"

    You're attempting to undermine the credibility of my argument by linking it to the number of dives, or boat dives, or dive boats I've been on

    It's called ad hominem circumstantial FYI


    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    Your argument could be equated to saying that a firefighter isnt responsible for putting out a fire to the best of his abilitys, because he didnt start the fire.
    That's a terrible analogy; a fireman's job is to put out fires. A DM's job is NOT to check that your air is on for you

    Your argument could be equated to saying that if you go to a shooting range, as a licensed shooter and having signed a waiver on range safety, that you would put a gun the rangemaster gave you to your head and pull the trigger, then blame him because you didn't check if the safety was on or the gun was loaded
    "You may not agree with everything I say but at the very least you'll come to understand that your differing opinion is wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tortuga68 View Post
    You're attempting to undermine the credibility of my argument by linking it to the number of dives, or boat dives, or dive boats I've been on
    No, im presenting a valid point. You however are trying to make a point that isnt leagally sustainable. The DM has a liability as soon as he messes with the guys gear, regardless of the waiver.

    Better yet lets get to the bottom of this...OP.....Can you do me a favor and tell us what kind of boat you were on, sea state, when the gear was assembled, by who, and if you specifically saw anything on the waiver stating that the dive boat crew was going to assemble your gear for you? Also, could you tell me what dive operator this was? I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble, i just want to see what their SOP is.
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~Louis A. Berman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quero View Post
    Nope. What is nonstandard is showing off with a "fancy" entry. I've seen people enter with the mask in their hands (their reasoning is that they will clean the baby shampoo--or whatever--off in the water before putting the mask on. I've seen people enter without their regs in their mouths (they claim it's an air-saving technique--these same people sometimes inflate their BCD orally to save tank air). I've seen people enter holding their fins rather than having them on their feet (they say it saves time on the dive platform for better "traffic flow"). But I've never seen anybody do all three of these at once! The humiliation for the diver who did this was well-earned!

    I personally enter the water with all my gear in the place it will be during the dive--fins on feet, reg in mouth, mask on face.
    I was initially going to remark that the particular entry seemed sloppy. However, after thinking about it, I've seen plenty of instances of a diver pretty much dumping all his or her gear over the side of the boat, jumping in after it and gearing up in the water. However, you should be pretty sure you know what you're doing before doing this, e.g. you are not overweighted and your stuff is buoyant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    No, im presenting a valid point
    You're doing it very poorly. What is your point, and what has it got to do with how many boat dives I've done?


    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    You however are trying to make a point that isnt leagally sustainable
    What are you basing that opinion on?


    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    The DM has a liability as soon as he messes with the guys gear, regardless of the waiver
    Is this a hypothetical, or are we still talking about the OP?
    "You may not agree with everything I say but at the very least you'll come to understand that your differing opinion is wrong"

    Best SB post ever: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3443054-post47.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    Better yet lets get to the bottom of this...OP.....Can you do me a favor and tell us what kind of boat you were on, sea state, when the gear was assembled, by who, and if you specifically saw anything on the waiver stating that the dive boat crew was going to assemble your gear for you? Also, could you tell me what dive operator this was? I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble, i just want to see what their SOP is
    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    What Divemaster do you know that lets someone splash without a mask on? As a matter of fact provide me with a specific incident, the DM's name, the agency, and his agency number so we can make sure he isnt around anymore
    :popcorn:
    "You may not agree with everything I say but at the very least you'll come to understand that your differing opinion is wrong"

    Best SB post ever: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3443054-post47.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomfcrist View Post
    Well Brendon, as an instructor you should know darn well that DUTY is a strong word. Are you implying that a DM has no DUTY to the divers on his boat, especially when he set up their gear for them? Do you not realize that as an Instructor, having a casual conversation with a non student of yours and giving advise on diving could lead to a legal liability for you, regardless of the waivers that the divers signed?
    Ive already commented on this thread in regards to the OP. No need to repeat myself. So let me tell you something about duty... It starts and stops were it began. Its not my job to babysit or let some certified diver suckle my tit... What you describe above has little to do with the topic at hand. We were talking about waivers last, which is far from the OP's intention I'm sure. Since you have changed the topic to "duty" I will say this. It is the DM's duty to act reasonable and prudent to the best of his ability taking into account the general safety for all. That said, they cannot catch everything, save everyone, look at everyones eyes at the same time to ensure all a paying close attention. The DM is a supervisor or general manager of the dive that is all. He is not directly responsible for any one thing. As long he does the best job he can which may still be substandard he is at fault for nothing. Unless he directly puts you in harms way and the result is injury or death good luck getting anyone to buy what your trying to sell. The diver must be relieved of the responsibility first then it becomes the DM's problem. The DM not catching the fact that the air was off does not relieve the diver the responsibility of ensuring his air is on before jumping in.
    wpbdivegirl likes this.

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