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Thread: In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

 


  1. #101
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    Mike's Avatar
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    That was in the Bahamas, I remember that, it was quite chilling to read the incident. I think at some point it was brought up that she might have been trying to commit suicide.
    Mike

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  2. #102
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    Craig66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fred3798 View Post
    You know, I was starting to feel prett good about diving until I started to read some of the posts that focus on how dangerous th sport is and how DMs cannot be counted upon to be of much use in an emergency. I am at about 60 dives and have my breath control and buoyancy pretty much under control. I move around by breath control and slight foot movement generally and I am always one of the last to ascend when the dive is set to end based on air usage as opposed to time. I can do a saftey stop and hover between 15 and 20 feet without a line from the boat (although I love boats that drop a horizintal bar in Grand Cayman). I have always counted upon the DM for navigation however. I almost never go back to the same place twice, so I never have familiar surroundings. I just follow the DM and ascend where he or she says to ascend. My wife and I are buddies and perhaps do not stay as close as we ought to although we are always aware of where each other is. She likes ot go very slowly and look at every nook and cranny. I get a bit more impatient and want to travel more distance to see more fish and macro views. I have assumed that with good basic skills and always diving in a no-decompression environment, if worse comes to worse, I can always get to the surface in a hurry with my wife or at least keeping an eye on her too. I even have a loud noidsemaker connected to my BCD hose (it was stupid expensive but I got it as a gift), so if I have a problem I can attract attention pretty easily. But SB has increased my concern. The discusion of CO poisoning is troubling - although a low probability occurence it seems. Now we're discussing downdrafts that are stronger than a swimmer with a full BCD. Add the thought that DMs are not really there for safety or that, even if they are, there is not much they can do, has me wondering if the sport is as safe as I thought it was. I have reassured my elderly mother many times that the sport is safe and you have to do something pretty bad to be unable to surface should an emergency happen. If SB posters are tryign to ensure that people stay vigilant, that is one thing. But I am starting to form a view that the is more danger than I realized and the whole notion of PADI certificaton letting people with 2 dives loose underwater with dive operators who are not there to keep them safe, may make the industry a big frightening scam.
    Fred, what you are feeling is very normal and also very healthy. When we are first exposed to Scuba the amazement and wonder of being able to be a visitor in a hostile environment beats any concerns for safety and concern. PADI unfortunately does not do enough to prevent that feeling and although there is education the real dangers are not stressed enough and clearly the standards for passing a diver are way too lax. Next thing you know you are a certified diver. If you are lucky you realize that you are now qualified to learn to dive and if you are unlucky you think you know how to dive. You then spend the next year or so picking up PADI cards and becoming a "better and better" diver. At around 30 dives you have every card PADI has ever made but start to get that gnawing feeling after each dive that something just wasnt right. You start reflecting on some of the dives and realizing the potential for something bad to have happened. You become an avid scubaboard reader and then the reality hits you that this is a sport that can kill.

    The reality is that this can be a dangerous sport and it can lead to loss of life but it is one of the few recreational activities where you can be in control of your safety. Riding a bike is a "safe sport" until the day that you are hit by an idiot on a cell phone - something you have no control of. Skiing is a safe activity until some out of control idiot plows into you or decides to stop mid slope below a blind rise and you land up plowing into them and hurting both of you - again something that you have no control of. I could decide to stay home from my planned Coz trip and rather go to work and on the first day of my ex-vacation when I should have been on a boat to Santa Rosa wall I am instead in a car on the way to work when someone plows into me - again no control.

    Scuba is the one recreational activity that keeps a lot of control in your hands - keep reading, keep your skills current, try and learn something from every dive you do, reflect and learn, use quality and well cared for equipment and your odds of becoming a scuba statistic although not nullified are significantly reduced.

    Craig
    gypsyjim and RickyF like this.
    If I should die please do not let my wife sell my dive equipment for what I told her I paid for it

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    That was in the Bahamas, I remember that, it was quite chilling to read the incident. I think at some point it was brought up that she might have been trying to commit suicide.
    I don't remember the suicide theory. I just want to emphasize the point that the majority consensus was that the DM should have been able to prevent the death of a diver who was actively trying to avoid her. Say what you will about individual diver responsibility, when a diver dies on a DM-led dive, all eyes will turn immediately to the DM. If you train to be a DM under me, you can believe that message will be part of your training.
    gypsyjim and Sorrows like this.
    John Adsit
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  4. #104
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    is back in Coz. Viva Mexico!
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I'd be happy to dive in Cozumel without a dive master on the boat dives....

    And I think that shows the weakness and the impotence that divers get when all they do is do dive areas that are lead by dive masters, your brain goes on auto pilot, you go from DefCon 5 down to 2 and let your guard down, you stop thinking for yourself and paying as much attention as you should on the dive, you're in vacation mode under water too, and that lulling into complacency can turn risky if not deadly if suddenly something unexpected is thrown in.
    Or perhaps it makes you complacent regarding the things that could happen on a drift dive in Cozumel. The fact that everything goes smoothly and you never have a problem makes you lower your guard and think there is no situation in which you might need a DM saving your tookus. If you worry about taking your own SMB, mirror, sea dye, whistle, PLB, and prep and then say I would be happy to dive with out an expert in the local conditions and such, how does that reconcile except in a chest thumping, "me super diver "thing?

    Again, and no insult to you Fin, it strikes me as this recurring superman theme. If you agree you should have a good DM along who is ready to assist, then you aren't a REAL diver. REAL divers have a good buddy and all the crap stashed in their BCD and the rest doesn't matter. If you can't clip it to you or your buddies BCD it is superfluous equipment, DM included. If you think a DM who can save your butt is a good idea, then you are lacking in skills. You also have to be able to pee the furthest standing up..... Isn't that the precise thinking that gets people hurt?


    Quote Originally Posted by boulderjohn View Post
    Most people clearly thought that the DM was fully responsible for the safety of a diver who was actively trying to get away from her.
    Well that seems ridiculous the way you tell it, but I think it was appropriate that he *tried*, right?
    Sorrows likes this.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by cvchief View Post
    Well that seems ridiculous the way you tell it, but I think it was appropriate that he *tried*, right?
    I think she tried hard and failed. In my book, she did OK. Others looked at the same evidence and saw it differently. A DM, they argued, should have the strength, stamina, and skill to overcome that diver's evasive actions.
    cvchief likes this.
    John Adsit
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  6. #106
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    parsing?

    What is parsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Here's the problem with that scenario. You're either sending your boat with newbie divers and experienced divers to Paradise reef every day where the newbie divers are safe as kittens and the experienced divers are bitching every day about the boring dive sites the dive op keeps sending them to, or you're sending your boat to Palancar Deep where the newbie divers are floating in the water column at 40 feet wondering what they are supposed to be looking at, while the experienced divers are having a ball.

    Aqua Adventures on Isla Mujeres does the parsing thing putting experienced and newbie divers on the same boat to the same site with different dive masters, they do it because of a lack of a 2nd boat and not enough divers to fill two anyways so you end up on dumbed down dive sites in the morning any day they have newbies or instruction going on, and 6 out of 7 days a week the after noon dive you end up diving 30ft Marchones II and falling asleep. I'm done diving with them because of this.

    Mayan Divers in West Bay on Roatan is now doing the same thing. The groans became louder and more vocal from the 6 advanced divers as the week goes by and its the 2nd and 3rd time in a week when you hear you're going to turtle crossing again because they have two divers taking OW instructions on board.

    I can't dive with them anymore either.

    Divers in Cozumel will quickly gravitate away from dive ops parsing divers. Experienced divers in Cozumel have dive sites they want to go on and if their dive op won't take them to them because they are parsing, they will go find a dive op who will.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsyjim View Post
    A diver can call their dive for any reason, at any time. Period. If she chose to be a good buddy, and ascend with her buddy/husband that was her choice, and the boat crew was out of line objecting.
    Thanks to everyone who has responded to my question. Your comments support my action of ascending with hubby. BTW, the remainder of our trip was awesome....especially since we didn't have that DM ever again!
    Sorrows likes this.

  8. #108
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    gypsyjim's Avatar
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    Qiuote from boulderjohn:
    "I think she tried hard and failed. In my book, she did OK. Others looked at the same evidence and saw it differently. A DM, they argued, should have the strength, stamina, and skill to overcome that diver's evasive actions. "


    I am on lunch at work, so do not have time right now to do a search, but if I recall the incident the DM did try to execute a rescue but the diver refused her help, and even may have physically resisted her assistance. The diver then descended to extremely depth, where a rescue attempt would have possibly or almost certainly been suicidal.

    No scenario requires a diver or DM to throw their life away to do a rescue, which is I believe the single most important rule a diver learns in a rescue class, and certainly such extreme risk is not required when it becomes apparent that the diver is bent on self destruction.

    At some point in a rescue attempt every person has to evaluate their own risks, and weight them against what ever other factors they feel they need to. Chance of success. Is this a personal loved one, whom you will go to real extremes for, beyond the normal you would for a fellow diver? Are you trying to save a customer, a friend and/or protect your job? And is rescue in this situation even possible? ETC.

    Every one of us has our own value system, and may draw the line at differing levels of risk, but in the end two victims should never be the result of a rescue attempt..
    Sorrows and cvchief like this.


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  9. #109
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    Mcote's Avatar
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    Being a complete newbie (or maybe less than noob, since I am just now working on classroom work), this thread has me doubting my plans. I am working on OW so I can dive during cruise shore excursions. Cruising is something my spouse loves to do and I have recently fallen in love with diving after a discovery dive in Grand Turk. We are planning a Western Carib cruise in Dec '12 and I am working towards having my OW for diving in Grand Cayman and Cozumel. Now I'm thinking Grand Cayman will be good but Cozumel sounds like a little much, especially after reading the cruise description about diving Palancar Reef at 70-80 feet. Comments? Suggestions?

    Marc

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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsyjim View Post
    No scenario requires a diver or DM to throw their life away to do a rescue, which is I believe the single most important rule a diver learns in a rescue class, and certainly such extreme risk is not required when it becomes apparent that the diver is bent on self destruction.
    Exactly. I have undertaken suitable training to assist others...within reason. I have my personal depth limits which is adequate for most likely scenarios.

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