Help me de-mystify drysuits.

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ScubaDoo83

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Location
Covington, KY
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I am looking to get into drysuit diving in order to extend my dive season here at home in the midwest. I am considering the Bare Nex Gen since I like what I saw about it on my last dive trip but I will be holding off on purchase decisions until after I take the drysuit certification. This topic is meant more for the functionality of a drysuit and things to look for. I am also wanting to switch to a BP&W system around the same time for travel reasons (the Nex Gen also travels light for a drysuit).

- In what instances do you use the drysuit for buoyancy? Why would you if you have a wing?
- What kinds of things should I be looking for feature-wise (replaceable seals etc)
- Since I will be new to both drysuits and BP&W are there considerations I should be taking when combining the two systems?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Two more Q's

- Do you need to lube the seals/zipper every dive?
- Is the inside allowed to get wet? I mean it won't cause damage just simply dry it out?
 
- In what instances do you use the drysuit for buoyancy? Why would you if you have a wing?
- What kinds of things should I be looking for feature-wise (replaceable seals etc)
- Since I will be new to both drysuits and BP&W are there considerations I should be taking when combining the two systems?
- Do you need to lube the seals/zipper every dive?
- Is the inside allowed to get wet? I mean it won't cause damage just simply dry it out?

As a technical diver - I only would use the drysuit for buoyancy if I had a failure in my wing. I set the dump valve open - and just put enough air in the drysuit to minimize squeeze. The wing and power inflator give you more control over your buoyancy. With that said - PADI's drysuit class teaches recreational divers to use your drysuit as your primary buoyancy device - probably to minimize task loading for inexperienced divers.

Features you buy will depend on your diving. Long dives? (i.e. 2 hour) get a pee valve. Crotch strap on your harness (particularly with a DPV) - get a cloverleaf pad in the crotch to prevent wear there. I like the DUI zip seals - I can swap out wrist seals and gloves in 5 minutes. Some people prefer a ring system. Your drysuit class should inform you as to the options available.

I started diving dry with a BPW when I had about 20 dives under my belt. No problems. Get a good mentor. Dive with experienced people - and you will learn quickly.

I usually lube my seals after cleaning the drysuit. So - zipper get's lubed (lightly) once per weekend - not after every dive.

Inside can get wet. I wash mine inside and out. I then use a drying rack (PVC pipes with holes) to blow air throughout the suit. Make sure it is completely dry before you store it.

Hope that helps.
 
depending on the temperature you want to dive you might consider getting a ring system that allows you to replace your seals without tools and at the same time offers the use of dry gloves. Sitec makes a good ring system and I might have my ZipSeals replaced with one as the ZipSeal cuffs are really expensive.
I would not change too much at a time, so rather swap to BP/W first and when comfortable with the new setup do the drysuit course or do the course in your old jacket.
The question what to use for buoyancy really is not a question at all as you will be adding and removing air to and from both devices anyway when changing depth, the wing can be adjusted more easily as the rear dump valve is in the correct position to release air when in horizonal trim, on the other hand an open suit dumpvalve will release air as soon as you lift the inflator to release air from the wing. I find myself and all my fellow drysuit divers using both :D although the wing is used for buoyancy only and the suit for buoyancy and warmth.
 
Ooohhh, another suit vs bcd thread :popcorn: :)

More seriously, when you start diving dry, you'll probably discover that if you're correctly weighted, comfort air (i.e. the air you add to avoid squeeze and keep your undergarments comfortably lofted) pretty much balances your buoyancy requirements on ascents and descents, while the air in your BCD/wing is used to offset buoyancy swings due to gas consumption.

My method is to go neutral shortly after descent, usually at relatively shallow depth by adding just enough air to my suit to be comfortable and adding the rest to my wing. During the dive, I adjust short-term buoyancy changes by adding air to my suit. Whenever I get a little too squeezed while neutral, I vent a little from my wing. It's quite natural after a few dives, and if I've breathed down my tank, I'm usually slightly, but not uncomfortably squeezed during my safety stop while my wing is pretty much empty.

Using just the suit for buoyancy can work well if you're in a snug neoprene DS with thin undergarments. In a trilam suit, you'll probably struggle with trim and bubble control, particularly if the water is cold so you're wearing thick undergarments.
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Point 1.

use the BC for buoyancy. If you do the PADI course you will be taught to use the suit. It isn't "wrong" but it most certainly isn't "correct". Storker is spot on the money if you are correctly weighted you will probably find taking the squeeze off the suit returns you to neutral buoyancy.

Point 2.

Features. With a shell suit type - trilaminate I would look for replaceable seals. The new flexible neck seal and the silicone seals are very good. The cuff seals system also allow you to fit dry gloves. Personally I cannot get on with dry gloves but other folk like them so you at least have the option and the chance to try. If you buy a neoprene suit I would suggest a neoprene neck seal (I assume you are a man?) and latex cuffs (glued). A neoprene suit will keep you warm(er) if it floods. Try both if you get the chance.

Point 3.
The wing system is not really going to make any odds IMHO. The changes to your diving it brings will be the same irrespective of the exposure suit.

Point 4.
No, the zipper doesn't need a lube every time. But do keep it clean and lube frequently. Store it zipped up as the zip is stronger when closed.

Point 5.
No never ever wet inside.

After many many years of diving - all of it dry - I have finally gone for a made to measure trilam. The advantage over the many suits I have had over the years is very noticeable. I started diving with doubles about 7 years ago and the in order to shut down the manifold valves you need a flexible suit. Made to measure (and a decent undersuit like the Santi) really do make a difference.

If you buy a good suit (BARE are OK) it shouldn't leak. You might get damp from sweating. Why would you spend $2,000 and get wet? I do really really like the front entry zip telescopic type suits. Something like the DUI TLS 350. Do please try something like that if the budget allows for it. My old BARE neoprene was good and well made but that type of suit is more restrictive. If you have a shop that rents them out you can try a few different sorts. Or buy a secondhand one and if you don't like it resell it and buy another secondhand one.

IMPO the drysuit is the most important item in your kit. Take your time before rushing to spend a fortune. Then take very good care of it.
 
Obviously, when you make two major changes in equipment, you're going to have a few awkward dives before everything is adjusted properly and you are comfortable with your new gear.

Dry suit zipper care varies with the kind of zipper. Metal zippers need lubricating fairly frequently, although after they have broken in a bit, not every dive. TiZip zippers need a smear of silicone lubricant to the docking end every once in a while, but not actually very often (at least mine doesn't).

Dry suits all eventually get wet inside, or as my friend NW Grateful Diver says, "All dry suits become wetsuits, and then you get them fixed." They can be turned inside out to dry, and even rinsed if required, and how easy that is to do depends on whether you have dry suit socks or attached boots. The socks are easy to turn inside-out, but the boots can be challenging or even impossible, which means that if you get flooded, you have to figure out how to get them dry. (Hint: A Peet's boot dryer works.)

What you look for in a dry suit depends on how you are going to use it and how much you are willing to spend. For relatively shallow (<100 ft) diving in cold water, a full neoprene dry suit means lots of insulation and minimal undergarments, but to my knowledge, also commits you to neoprene seals, which means no dry gloves. Full neoprene suits have the same compression/decompression behaviors as neoprene wetsuits, so you have to manage their expansion and the effect on your buoyancy. They are heavy and dry slowly, but they're fairly difficult to damage. They're generally cheap.

A popular choice for local, cold water diving is compressed or crushed neoprene. Such suits are also heavy and fairly stiff, but they have some intrinsic insulating quality, and they are very tough. They can have latex or neoprene seals, and I think you can put something like the SiTech user replaceable seal system on them. They are expensive.

If you travel, or if you dive in water that varies in temperature, you're better off with a laminate suit, which has no intrinsic insulation and is dependent on what you put under it. Laminate suits are lighter and dry faster (precisely how much lighter and how much faster depends on the material), but they require heavier undergarments for any given water temperature, and they are comparatively fragile. They vary widely in price, depending on whether the material is bilaminate or trilaminate (which is tougher), and how much tailoring goes into the design. Laminate suits can have latex seals and most can have neoprene -- it depends on the material. Some come with the user-replaceable seals as an option, but I think they can be installed as an after-market item on most if not all of them.

Dry suit options include seal material and/or quick change seal systems. It's important to realize that self-change wrist seals obligate you to a wrist ring, which can be annoying if you are using the suit where you don't want to use dry gloves. In addition, the neck ring can impact mobility and the ability to reach your dump valve (or your valves in doubles). Suits can be made with a neoprene collar overlying a latex seal, for additional warmth. Some now permit a choice of zipper material. Some suits come with thigh pockets -- others offer this as an option. I'm not personally aware of any suit that DOESN'T offer pockets as an option except the Fusion Sport. The Bare suit with the long torso zipper only offers one pocket, because the other one cannot be installed with that design.

As I mentioned above, suits can come with socks or boots. The advantage of socks is easy donning and easy turning inside-out to dry. The disadvantage is having to put on a boot or shoe, which can be awkward if you are packed into the suit with a couple of inches of insulation in it. You can also lose any outer boot, which takes the fin with it, which is not fun. Boots, on the other hand, have to fit, and you are stuck with whatever boot design comes with your suit (whereas with socks, you can play around with various boots until you find one you like). But they don't come off the suit . . .

The Fusions are a suit unto themselves. They are a bilaminate bag which is cut oversized, and contained within a compressive outer shell. The oversized bag allows good mobility, and the shell keeps the suit from ballooning and making buoyancy difficult. Because any outside trauma catches the shell first, the suits are hard to damage. A variety of outer shells is available, ranging from pure Lycra to pure1 mm neoprene. The thinner shell makes the suit lighter and quicker to dry, but doesn't support pockets, requiring the use of pocket shorts if you want thigh storage. The heavier skins support pockets, but sagging can be an issue if you put much in them. The front zip Fusion zipper design puts a lot of stress on the zipper where it curves, and that's where mine failed. The Fusions are very well priced and they are very durable. Some people don't like them because they are relatively annoying to put on.

For single tank divers, the question of wing versus suit really becomes moot with time. At the beginning, many people find it easier to put air in the wing and run the suit somewhat tight, because they're used to venting a wing and the wing vents very quickly (whereas in the suit, the air can get a long way from the dump valve!). But if you are properly weighted, the amount of air you need in the suit for maximal lofting of your undergarment will turn out to be just about the amount of air you need to get neutral, so as you get more comfortable with the suit and want to stay warmer, you will progressively put more air in the suit, until you don't use the wing underwater much, if at all.
 
... TiZip zippers need a smear of silicone lubricant to the docking end every once in a while, but not actually very often (at least mine doesn't)...

Be careful about bringing silicon lubricant around your trilaminate drysuit. It contaminates the material, and makes repairs difficult to impossible (e.g. when you try to replace that zipper). Silicone permeates the fabric, can't be removed, and prevents glues from sealing properly. If you have the typical brass drysuit zipper - use wax on the outside of the brass teeth only. And do so lightly to avoid attracting dirt.

If you have the TiZip zipper - yes. It uses silicone as a lubricant - for any other zipper - use a wax based lubricant.
 
For relatively shallow (<100 ft) diving in cold water, a full neoprene dry suit means lots of insulation and minimal undergarments, but to my knowledge, also commits you to neoprene seals, which means no dry gloves.

That's not correct. My first DS, a Scubapro Everdry, came with neoprene seals. My son's was bought used and had had its wrist seals replaced by rubber seals. His current DS, a Seemann Challenger, came originally with rubber seals both in the neck and the wrists.

It depends on the manufacturer's choices. But I agree that installing a ring system on a neoprene DS might be challenging. Which means that may have to opt for cuff over seal instead of rings if you want drygloves.



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Typos are a feature, not a bug
 
I own a Whites Fusion Bullet and recently switched to a USIA Techniflex which I will be diving for the first time this coming weekend. TSandM is correct on the PITA part of the White's but I will say that for my first drysuit I took to it like a fish to water...pardon the pun... I switched to the USIA because of ease of entry and exit first off but I also like how tough and durable the material is. My new DS is a BiLam I believe and the material feels very stout without adding a bunch of weight. I tried on a DUI TLS 350 and although it was lighter than my USIA it also did not feel as durable. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the DUI in any way just pointing out how I felt wearing both suits. DUI makes a great product but it is quite spendy. When I ordered my USIA I got the replaceable neck seal system from SiTech, the cool thing is that the new generation of this seal system is a soft ring not a rigid ring like I had on my White's. I used silicone seals on my Whites but I got latex on my USIA and so far I think I may like it better. The silicone seals although very flexible did not slide on as easy as the latex but then again I have not gotten the latex seals wet yet either. Definitely get the pockets, you can put things in there such as your SMB and reel and not worry about then floating away like mine did once. I would also go for the zippered pocket versus the velcro flaps. I have the built in boots on my new suit and they are so much easier to get in and out of than rock boots. As TSandM pointed out, bending over and putting on rock boots can be a bit of a pain, I can attest to that. Another nice thing about my suit is the cost. I got mine for show price at a small scuba event similar to DEMA for $1295 regular price is only $1795 so not too bad even at regular price. I paid upwards of $2500 for my first drysuit plus some with all of the accessories I added.

As for buoyancy...I was taught to use my suit by my DS instructor but then later took a skills course where the instructor taught me to keep enough air in my suit to avoid squeeze and make buoyancy adjustments with my wing. I have to say that I like the second method much better. It is an extra step but I like the way it feels doing it that way. Depending on who you talk to there really isn't a wrong way to do it just go with how you feel best.

Lastly, I would look real hard at their dry suits, I have been hearing some stories going around about leaky seals/seams and such on brand new suits. Again, I am not knocking Bare just passing on a heads up so you can do your research prior to buying a DS.

Good luck!
 
Be really careful with the bilam. They are susceptible to damage from the inside, so zippers, car keys or anything you have on your undergarments that might have a hard edge can damage the laminate. There is a reason the high-end suits are trilam.
 

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